Namban menuki - Good enough for Fred?

[Peter Bleed]

Last week I mentioned a set of iron Namban menuki in one or another of the namban threads that were active. I have forgotten which one I mentioned these in, so please let me start a new thread. Are these "Namban fittings" or do they merely present a Nambanjin?

And in any case, are they good enough for Fred?

Peter

[b.hennick]

Hi Peter:

I collect iron menuki. They are probably good enough for me. I think that Fred has first "dibs".

[docliss]

At the risk of boring NMB members with my compulsive stance ….

 

I am sure that Peter’s iron menuki would be labelled as Namban by a shinsa, but I prefer to call them Hizen work, while acknowledging a strong namban influence.

 

John L.

[kusunokimasahige]

Since the clothes worn by the figures are distinctly Chinese I would not go for Nanban theme.

 

KM

[docliss]

Henk-Jan

 

Since the majority of those tsuba properly labelled as Namban have their origin in China, either materially or inspirationally, I have great difficulty in understanding your position regarding this comment. Having its origin in China, and subsequently being adopted by the Japanese during the Heian period (794-1185 AD), Namban is a term that was applied indiscriminately to all foreigners, irrespective of their origin. The Chinese influence upon the Namban group of tsuba was of far more importance than the Western one.

 

John L.

[kusunokimasahige]

Well. I will explain my standpoint.

 

Nanban tetsu (Western Steel) is of course a name for tsuba which largely were made of iron coming from the West.

 

This might have been the Dutch East Indies, Macao, or maybe even China (definetely in the early Heian/Kamakura era).

 

But, Nanban also has received a later historical connotation of being "Western" "Barbarian" and "Dutch".

 

That being as it may we have to deal with the simple fact that trade with China all but ceased during the Tokugawa Era.

 

Also, at no time in Japanese History the Chinese were seen as barbaric.

 

And that is the main reason why I do not call these menuki specifically Nanban influenced.

 

I might of course be mistaken, but that is the later meaning I thought Nanban had. Not as much Chinese, but European.

 

KM

[Fred Geyer]

Hey, Peter email me

 

Fred

[docliss]

Nanban tetsu (Western Steel) is of course a name for tsuba which largely were made of iron coming from the West.

Please excuse me, Henk-Jan, if I appear to be picking on you, but there is no evidence that namban tetsu was utilised in the construction of Namban tsuba.

 

Hancock may be partly responsible for this apocryphal belief. He selected four tsuba out of a collection of 43 Namban examples in the collection of the Birmingham Museum and Art Gallery as being ‘made with southern barbarian iron of great hardness’. But there is no way of knowing the basis for this selection, and re-examination of those tsuba fails to reveal any reason for his choice of those particular four.

 

It is true that there are a few tsuba inscribed as being made of namban tetsu, but these are all ita tsuba. None are known of the Namban group, although the uninscribed seppa-dai of most of these may be a partial explanation for this.

 

I close this diatribe by quoting Joly: ‘Namban iron is a subject quite distinct from, and has nothing to do with, the Namban style’.

 

John L.

[kusunokimasahige]

John I do not feel picked on at all !

 

It is great seeing people more knowledgeable debunking myths. Thank you for that info which I, up to today did not know about.

 

KM

[Peter Bleed]

I am glad that John responded to Henk-Jan. Henk-Jan is wrong on a couple of points and we should not errors stand. I think that John and I may not agree completely, but let me add to his comments

The "Namban trade" refers to the international trade that Japan allowed in during the Edo period. It IS a Chinese term. At this time, a number of foreign objects were introduced to Japan - bread, trouser, leather, condoms, cake, for example. Some of the stuff that came it was steel ingots from India - "Namban tetsu". That steel was cheap and good, but it was NOT imported to make Namban tsuba. It was cheap good steel.

During the 18th century a fad swept Japan for exotic objects. Then - as now - Japanese like fads. The 18th Century fad was called "Rampiki" and it got lots of Japanese to affect "foreign" looking objects. The obvious place that lots of men could show that they were part of this fad was to put an exotic tsuba on their sword. The koshirae we call "Namban" are basically Japanese produced fittings that have designs that Edo period Japanese thought looked "foreign."

In addition to koshirae made in Japan with "foreign motifs", there were also some sword fittings that were made in Japan or elsewhere of objects that wcame from outside of Japan. The terrific tsuba made of Dutch coins that Fred showed us is one of those items. This was high end stuff. There were also some Chinese sword guards that got to Japan where they were adjusted for use on Nippon-to. We call those "Canton guard." Those are good, too.

The menuki that I think Henk-Jan judged rather harshly show a couple of guys that Edo era Japanese would have found "exotic." Henk-jan feels that they look Chinese rather than European, but it does not matter. They were "foreign" when Foreigners were bringing in Namban stuff. They were exotic. They were "Namban-jin." John thinks the menuki were made in Hizen. I would agree that they were made in Japan, but, Hizen? Well, mebbe. But there were workshops in several parts of Japan that made Namban fittings. Hizen would be the safest bet, but I think that supposition needs further investigation.

The guys on my menuki do look Chinese, but that does not keep them from being "Namban-jin." The beards, the trousers, and the brimmed hats are all icons of "foreigners." Chinese merchants were trading in "Namban" stuff and they were interestingly "exotic" to Edo period Japanese. Furthermore, by the time Dutchmen made it around the Horn, past India, thru the Straits of Malacca, spent some time in China, and got on to Japan, they would have worn out their Holland threads and be wearing outfits that included a mish-mash of Asian garments. Let's not be too rigid, Henk-Jan.

Peter

P.S. Oh, pm sent to Fred!

[kusunokimasahige]

Here are two interesting and in my view quite complete articles on the Nanban trade :

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanban_trade_period

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakoku

 

Though I agree with the post above in many parts I reject the notion that I was "hars" on the menuki. I called them depicting Chinese, which they are. Furthermore the notion that the Dutch somehow wore a rag tag of asian clothing because their European clothes wore out is immensely incorrect.

 

 

 

 

 

The Dutch, first at Hirado and subsequently on Dejima wore European clothing. Also, Rampiki (Ranpiki) just like the word Rangaku comes from ORANDA as far as I know. Many European words were incorporated by the Japanese like Pan for the Portuguese Pao, Bifuteki for the Dutch Biefstuk, Ranpu for the Dutch Lamp and many more.

 

I do however agree with the broader sense of Nanban and Nanbanjin and the assertion that it does not only relate to the European trade as such.

 

KM