Number of mekugi-ana for tsuka? (gunto vs. older)

[Ruben]

Hi Jacques,

 

I belive in the example above it´s the opposite, but I´am not 100% shure.

It depends...

 

Greetings

 

ruben

[runagmc]

Adam, one of the real-world waza we perform in both iaido & jodo is called taiatari, which is a collision move used to break the kamae/defense of your opponent. It's literally a body-to-body blow that just happens to have two swords in between them. I've seen the waza performed so badly that one of the bokken shattered - it's supposed to be training, not battle! - & I would expect a number of these waza would be performed on any battlefield where they used swords. It wouldn't take very many of them to do some serious damage to almost any blade, although I'm not certain where the weak point(s) would be.

 

Ken

Hi Ken, I was refering to gunto... wondering about the claim that Tsuka and mekugi breakage was problem in WW2 gunto. But what do I know, maybe it's true. I'm honestly not that knowledgeable about how they used their swords, being outdated weapons...

 

Hi Ruben, Even if you had a long two-handed tsuka, the sword would still be swung mainly with the foward hand (and mainly supported with the rear hand). Could you swing a sword harder with your hands spread way apart on a long tsuka? How about an axe? A Baseball bat? No, I can't see a long tsuka causing a dramatic increase in tsuka breakage, since the front hand is still the one giving and taking most of the force. The extra long tsuka would just be sticking out behind the back hand, making it impractical and uncomfortable for the swordsman, it seems.

 

 

@everyone-I agree, double-ana tsuka = safer, but it could only make the mounting more sturdy if the tsuka was less than perfect-fitting to begin with, in my opinion. If I was cranking out tsuka as fast as I could (wartime), I would use a second mekugi to lessen any movement in my less than perfect, quickly made, tsuka. (because as we know, movement=weakness=problems, and less movemment=stronger=less problems...

[runagmc]

If you have seen these tsuka damaged or disassembled you can see that both screws usually enter into the tsuka through an oblong metal collar about 15mm (5/8 in) long and 8mm wide that is rebated to meet the tapered head of the screw. The threaded end is screwed into a threaded nut on the opposite side, usually the same size/shape as the collar. Both metal plates are inletted into the honoki wood and left lying flush with the surface - covered by the same. The purpose appears to be not only to hold the tsuka and blade firmly (as menuki do), but also to ensure a firm, compressing grip to hold the tsuka onto the sides of the nakago.

 

Hi George, I think you are certainly right about the plates on each side of the tsuka, combined with 2 mekugi-ana, would all make for a stronger tsuka, less likely to be loose (even if the nakago doesn't have perfect tsuka fit), or become loose from use...

[Drago]

Could you swing a sword harder with your hands spread way apart on a long tsuka? How about an axe? A Baseball bat? No, I can't see a long tsuka causing a dramatic increase in tsuka breakage, since the front hand is still the one giving and taking most of the force. The extra long tsuka would just be sticking out behind the back hand, making it impractical and uncomfortable for the swordsman, it seems.

 

Adam: You can swing your sword harder and faster if you use the left hand to pull the rear end towards you while striking or to apply more pressure while crossing blades. But the force necessary is not that big. I think most of the force happens when you have to take the full force of the opponent's attack when blocking. But even then...

 

If the tsuka is made to fit and sits well, it shouldn't be that great a danger. Someone mentioned same and ito holding the tsuka together - that is true, but their "contribution" to stability is minimal compared to the wood and glue.

 

No matter how long the tsuka is, the end will never stick out behind the back hand. It's a common mistake beginner swordfighters make and you often see in movies. You never hold the blade with both hands right next to each other - that is completely useless and you waste a lot of strength when striking. One is at the tsuba/crossguard, the other at the kashira/pommel.

[cabowen]

The power comes from the left hand at the rear, the right hand guides...

[runagmc]

Hmmm, if that's the case then why do so many strikes using only the right hand under the tsuba still create plenty of power (any stroke from left side to right during unsheathing, for instance). Also, many swords use ONLY the right hand.

 

Pulling with the left hand on two-handed tsuka obviously adds to the force of the (especially downwarn) slash, the back hand "pulling and twisting the wrist" and the forward hand "pushing"... I'm not sure that means the left hand provides most of the force, but aids the swing of the right hand in stability and strength (increasing blade speed).

 

My point about tsuka length being more to do with functionality/praticality than tsuka breakage is this - your hands being spread apart becomes a hinderence to the swing when spread beyond a certain distance, so a super long tsuka would be pointless in function, and it would only get in the swordsmans way. Danger of long tsuka breakage would never come into play, in my mind, because functionality already limits the length.

 

PS I agree with everything you have said, Tobias-

[runagmc]

I just did a good experiment to help myself understand the mechanics. Try different swings with only the left hand at the end of the tsuka. Then try the same with only the right hand under tsuba. Left hand has decent power (especially a swing from right to left), but no control. Right hand has decent power and control. Together, I think at certain points in the swing, the left hand is creating more of the force, at some points, the right hand is. Same for control. A lot also depends on the direction of cut. It's seems to me it's very much both hands at work providing force and control to the swing.

[jeremy]

The power comes from the left hand at the rear, the right hand guides...

 

That is exactly how we are taught to cut in Toyama Ryu and Nakamura Ryu.

 

Regards

 

Jeremy

[runagmc]

Hi Jeremy, doing an upward slash from left side to right, would you say your right hand is just lightly guiding the sword the way you were taught? I have to ask because I'm not trained in sword handling - I'm only going by swinging a sword in the most efficient form I can, and trying to take account of what hand is pushing/pulling or guiding/bracing.

[jeremy]

Hi Adam

 

Rising diagonal cut or gyaku kesagiri involves more power in the right hand because of the mechanics of the cut. It is a difficult cut to master properly for most people.

Shinchokugiri or straight downward cuts use left has for power and right hand for guidance. Same as migi and hidari kesagiri. Beginners are always taught these cuts first. Hope this helps.

 

Regards

 

Jeremy

[runagmc]

Thank you, very helpful...

[cabowen]

The power comes from the left hand at the rear, the right hand guides...

 

That is exactly how we are taught to cut in Toyama Ryu and Nakamura Ryu.

 

Regards

 

Jeremy

 

I know because I trained in Toyama ryu for a year or two and spent some time talking with Nakamura Taisaburo sensei about this very thing.

[george trotter]

As I said before, I am not a swordsman, but I do know of the kata where the left hand pulls to make the cut most effective (used by Toyama Ryu Military Academy). I also know from observation over the years that the only gunto tsuka I have seen broken off after the end of the nakago (about 5-6), were Type 98 with one ana. To me, this is clear evidence of a result of the stresses generated by this kata (of course, some could have been broken post war, but again, probably via a left hand stress when chopping an apple tree in the garden ).

 

Considering this "evidence" therefore, when we see Ohmura's military pamphlet drawing and read various military comments on dimensions given for Type 3 being for longer nakago, 2 ana, and a sturdier lacquered gangimaki ito style tsuka, it is pretty clear as to why this change was ordered.

In simple terms, I think it can be assumed that the introduction of the Type 3 as the official pattern was just that, the official pattern...it did not mean that no more Type 98 were permitted to be bought or worn, it just meant that these were now "unofficial" pattern.

Officers were always expected to purchase their sword privately and this did not change, so they were still left to choose whatever sword/mounting they wished....which they did. This discussion on tsuka/stress/safety/strength issues relating to usage, pro and con, is also pretty clear evidence for why some officers chose the Type 3 and some chose the Type 98.

Regards,

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

The power comes from the left hand at the rear, the right hand guides...

 

Specially the little finger.

[cabowen]

Hi,

 

The power comes from the left hand at the rear, the right hand guides...

 

Specially the little finger.

 

Which is way Yakuza traditionally have removed the end of their little finger on the left hand- it makes them rather poor swordsman afterwards....Today's useless trivia....

[Toryu2020]

We really need a Swords and Swordsmen thread on this board,

 

There are many ways to cut with the Japanese sword - how you cut will depend often on the school you practice but also on the circumstances. Most will cut with the left hand, a large slicing stroke as has been mentioned. There is a "skipping" stroke, a pushing stroke, a pulling stroke, a "snapping" cut where the right hand pushes and the left hand pulls in a quick close snapping motion tight to the body. There is also chopping with the right hand or with both hands close together on the tsuka.

 

for any who have tried cutting real targets you will understand that the sword cuts best when the focus is in the mono-uchi. Chopping with the right hand puts all that power in the area of the koshi (habaki-moto) - might kill a naked man but a poor way to cut a moving target that is even lightly armed. Most often tsuka fail for two reasons; long tsuka/short nakago or very bad cutting form. Chopping is bad form and nearly every school you encounter will train it out of you. I use two mekugi in my training sword for added safety, in the tremendous explosions, rattle and roar one encounters crawling across a modern battle I'd want two mekugi in my tsuka as well.

 

However I think the failures would be more from poor cutting, applied to heavy targets (rifles, helmets) by poorly trained swordsmen, and maybe poor materials, a tough combination in a tough environment.

mho

-t

[runagmc]

See, I guess I need to do more research into sword usage, because I didn't know tsuka breakage was ever that much of a problem. Since wood gives (to a degree) it's hard for me to imagine stresses occuring that would literally break the tsuka (especially honoki). Like I said earlier, I would have thought a sword would bend/break before a tsuka would. Any picture or videos of a tsuka breaking during usage would be awesome, not that I don't believe, it would just be interesting to see.

 

I guess I can imagine a tsuka who's pocket didn't fit the nakago well (either from poor craftsmanship or from the fit loosening from heavy usage) leading to breakage. It would seem that a 2nd mekugi-ana would lessen any possible movement/loosening of the nakago in the tsuka pocket, which would decrease the chances of breakage--- but my next question would be - is the break usually a split parallel, or do they actually break in half perpendicular to the tsuka?

[cabowen]

or do they actually break in half perpendicular to the tsuka?

 

I have seen that happen and have seen tsuka broken off in that way.

[runagmc]

That's pretty amazing...

[cabowen]

That's pretty amazing...

 

Indeed. The broken tsuka I was shown were older and one wonders if the wood was a bit compromised from age when it happened...The other one I saw break wasn't old but very long. The owner was attempting to cut through a wooden pole of good size. It cracked nearly all the way through at the end of the nakago after a few attempts were made.