Jock Posted November 12, 2013 Report Posted November 12, 2013 Hi fellow Addicts, Hope everyone here is happy and blessed.... Just wanted to show my new one and get your appreciated opinion - will be able to post more detailed pics end of this / beginning next week.... Jock
kusunokimasahige Posted November 12, 2013 Report Posted November 12, 2013 Do you know when that horimono was carved on the blade ? It sure looks nice ! (the blade) KM
Jock Posted November 12, 2013 Author Report Posted November 12, 2013 Do you know when that horimono was carved on the blade ? It sure looks nice ! (the blade) KM Nope....a friend of mine thinks that the horimono was done quite a bit later.... Jock
cabowen Posted November 12, 2013 Report Posted November 12, 2013 Shirasaya almost looks like it was made from cherry.
Darcy Posted November 12, 2013 Report Posted November 12, 2013 There is a Joshu Norishige that is working in 1532 and there may be others, for which this could possibly be actually a legit piece. As Etchu Norishige it fails the smell test in most ways, the jihada is not out of the question but hard to evaluate fully from these. Hamon would be a stretch, signature is too confident and the horimono not appropriate. So all of those kind of point to a later work and not necessary someone trying to fake Norishige. Worth continuing to investigate as it looks like a nice blade overall. If someone has the Meikan it would be interesting to see if there is anyone in Joshu a bit after this 1532 to see if it continues. Fujishiro has him as a last generation of Hasebe. Not sure if the mei is different though I only have the translation with me.
cabowen Posted November 12, 2013 Report Posted November 12, 2013 The nakago is too smooth and fresh looking with what looks like a repatination likely. The mei is totally wrong for the famous Norishige, as are most other things with this blade. Given the state of the nakago and the ohada visible, the most likely explanation is someone saw the hada and decided to make a Norishige. The horimono looks more like something you would see on an Echizen Yasutsugu...
Marius Posted November 12, 2013 Report Posted November 12, 2013 The horimono looks more like something you would see on an Echizen Yasutsugu... http://yakiba.com/wak_yasutsugu.htm
RobertM Posted November 12, 2013 Report Posted November 12, 2013 Nice looking blade but i have to say im not a fan of the horimono. Rob M
Jussi Ekholm Posted November 12, 2013 Report Posted November 12, 2013 I might be totally wrong with this but sometimes as a novice you have to ask stupid questions in order to learn. Could this be shobu-zukuri wakizashi?
J Reid Posted November 12, 2013 Report Posted November 12, 2013 No. In order to be classified as shobu-zukuri, the shinogi must go all the way to the tip of the kissaki.
Jussi Ekholm Posted November 12, 2013 Report Posted November 12, 2013 I know that there seems to be some debate on it. But NBTHK has described wakizashi with similar tips as shobu-zukuri. I'm thinking I see high shinogi & thinner kasane, and I'm not sure if I see kaeri or if it's just something else. Of course I might see completely wrong.
J Reid Posted November 12, 2013 Report Posted November 12, 2013 Yeah, I can see why the NBTHK would consider blades without that specific feature "shobu-zukuri".. In my eyes this blade is shobu-zukuri. However, "technically" the shinogi should go to the kissaki.
Jacques D. Posted November 12, 2013 Report Posted November 12, 2013 Hi, There is a Joshu Norishige that is working in 1532 and there may be others, for which this could possibly be actually a legit piece. Not the same ji Nori 上州住憲重.
Lance Posted November 13, 2013 Report Posted November 13, 2013 I was thinking the horimono resembled those seen on Yasutsugu as well. I don't know if it was just the first generation, or if later generations did it too: making copies of swords by famous smiths to be given as gifts by the Tokugawa Shogunate. Included an excerpt from a very good article about the Yautsugu school at the link below from the same site Mariuszk posted, I believe the owner of the website is a member here too. http://yakiba.com/article_yasutsugu.htm Shodai Yasutsugu (Keicho 1596) was a highly skilled sword smith. He was skilled not only at forging swords in his own style, but also a master of replicating (utushi-mono) old Koto blades and the art of re-tempering (saiha). These utushi-mono were commissioned by the Tokagawa Shogunates such as Hideyasu, Ieyasu, as gifts to distinguished Daimyo and officials. He was known to have made excellent copies of Masamune, Sadamune, Nobukuni and others. Many of the old Daimyo mumei heirlooms found today are thought to be utushi-mono made by Shodai Yasutsugu. Once the battle of Osaka (1614 - 1615) had ended, Shodai Yasutsugu was summoned to Osaka. Here he was commissioned for the restoration (saiha) or replication (utushi-mono) of a great many masterworks which had been destroyed when Osaka Castle was burned. Also added an image of a sword by Yasutsugu from Nihonto-Koza Shinto volume below. (fairly well known blade, published in many books. I also remember seeing it at the Metropolitan Art Museum in NY a few years back when the Arts of the Samurai exhibit was held.) If the mei isn't good, maybe an odd utushimono of sorts by one of the smiths of this school is something to consider? Regards, Lance
Darcy Posted November 13, 2013 Report Posted November 13, 2013 Chris is right about the horimono. I had photographed similar on a Bitchu Tameie once (this is an ancient and terrible photo) that belonged to a friend of mine: http://www.nihonto.ca/tameie/ Jacques, thanks for the info on the mei. Shape, Moroha-Zukuri is the one that the shinogi runs to the tip of the kissaki. Shobu-zukuri the shinogi terminates before the tip of the kissaki. http://www.ksky.ne.jp/~sumie99/styles.html So I think this would be OK to be described as that, but whether or not it was originally a naginata or made like this is open to debate. Cut down from a 1600s naginata and the mei added after could be right. Doesn't look like a very smart fakery of a Norishige, they did it like it's got neon lights on the mei, not at all antique. So could be someone's idea of an "attribution" <-- with air quotes.
J Reid Posted November 13, 2013 Report Posted November 13, 2013 Darcy, I was under the impression moroha-zukuri had a sharpened edge on both top and bottem.. I double checked and reference for both shobu and moroha are a hit and miss.. Some diagrams show moroha zukuri without edge on top whereas the majority describe it as sharp on top and bottom. I also found a lot of examples of shobu zukuri with shinogi to point and without shinogi to point. Examples vary. I guess this is where the saying "exceptions to every rule/opinion" and whatnot comes into play. Agree to disagree? Def: MOROHA-ZUKURI A double edged blade that is asymmetric for the ridge line. http://www.ksky.ne.jp/~sumie99/styles.html SHOBU TSUKURI Shobu shape with ridge lines to point without yokote. http://www.nihonto.com/abtglos.html
Jean Posted November 13, 2013 Report Posted November 13, 2013 Moroha zukuri, typical sue koto pattern, a lot of of sue Bizen/Mino tanto have survived. We see often Bizen Moroha zukuri tanto for sale, price is expensive. Double edge, ridge running till the tip of the kissaki. http://www.nihontocraft.com/Bizen_Harumitsu_tanto.htm Shobu zukuri (iris leaf): one cutting edge, the ridge line should run tiil the tip (cf Nakamura book, "Facts and Fundamentals of the Japanese sword"), search the Board I have posted one. By extension kind of shinogi zukuri without yokote (twisted iris leaf), this one is the most often found.
J Reid Posted November 13, 2013 Report Posted November 13, 2013 Jean, We agree then that if shinogi does not touch tip, it is "technically" not shobu-zukuri.. If the NBTHK considers a similar blade shape, without shinogi touching tip, shobu-zukuri - is this then an "exception to the rule"? Would the blade in this thread be considered shobu-zukuri, in your opinion?
Jacques D. Posted November 13, 2013 Report Posted November 13, 2013 Hi, Kokan Nagayama is clear on that, Shobu zukuri is the same as shinogi-zukuri but without yokote and the vast majority of Japanese scholars too.
Jean Posted November 14, 2013 Report Posted November 14, 2013 Let the Japanese experts discuss of this, both exist, as I stated above.
J Reid Posted November 14, 2013 Report Posted November 14, 2013 viewtopic.php?f=1&t=10327&p=87169&hilit=shobu#p87169 - pg7 Top post by Chris..
Jean Posted November 14, 2013 Report Posted November 14, 2013 In this article, the author is in accordance with Nakamura sama ("to the tip of the bladex"). Conditional tense is used considering double edge shobuzukuri, but not to be excluded. :D
Darcy Posted November 16, 2013 Report Posted November 16, 2013 We agree then that if shinogi does not touch tip, it is "technically" not shobu-zukuri.. If the NBTHK considers a similar blade shape, without shinogi touching tip, shobu-zukuri - is this then an "exception to the rule"? Would the blade in this thread be considered shobu-zukuri, in your opinion? Shobu zukuri that I'm familiar with and always have seen in the books is close to a standard shape, missing yokote, with the shinogi terminating *before* the tip, not at the tip. Shinogi gets closer to the ha as the ha curves up to the tip, different radius basically. You had referenced Sumiie's site for the Moroha Zukuri and she has the shape I am familiar with for Shobu Zukuri. "SHOBU-ZUKURI It is like SHINOGI-ZUKURI, but without YOKOTE line. an example: Wakizashi, Shikkake" I haven't been aware of any alternate definitions of this shape before but doesn't mean my knowledge is comprehensive here. But the above is something I'd be calling shobu zukuri.
Eric H Posted November 16, 2013 Report Posted November 16, 2013 It is from Nakamura's book It's from Nobuo Nakahara's book Both explanations of „shobu zukuri“ are accepted...the shinogi suji runs up to the point or reaches the mune before the point, sometimes very close before the point. Examples from Aoi-website: Muramasa shobu zukuri Kanemitsu shobu zukuri Eric
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