A Yoshiro (?) mon tsuba

[Brian]

Nice one Ford!

For those of us not familiar with it, can you briefly describe the manufacturing process? The overlapping borders do make it look less like inlay and more like a "painted on finish" :lol:

Would be great to get a little insider insight.

 

Brian

[Ford Hallam]

Brian

 

the 'mon' (not really mon at all) are riveted into a circular hole in the steel as discs of shinchu. A circular hole is cut in the steel plate and give a slightly flared outer edge on each side to allow the shinchu to lock in place when riveted in situ. Thereafter the piercing work is carried out.

 

The rest of the decoration is regular inlay. The final detailing would be the outlining of the inlay work with an engraved/chiselled line. These are not the epitome of skilled work so overlaps and irregularities are par for the course.

The idea that paint or lacquer might simulate this effect is simply ludicrous and can only come from the imagination of someone with zero practical experience of both the original objects and paint or lacquer.

 

There's no mercury gilding involved where brass type alloys are involved.

[Pete Klein]

Thanks much Ford. I realize now what I got backwards. I thought that perhaps the shinchu was gilt and wear had caused the darker areas of the inlay. What I see now is just the reverse (if I am correct). The darker areas of the inlay are oxidized/patina and the lighter majority of the surfaces are the shinchu. This is what happens when one stares at too many teeth...LOL!

 

Thanks so much!

 

Pete

[John A Stuart]

I was always frightened by dentists, especially Dr Giggles. Or 'die weisse engel', Marathon Man, "Zzzzzzzzz, is it safe, zzzzzzzz, is it safe?". Scary stuff. John

[Ford Hallam]

Hi Pete, that's about the size of it

...she said

[Pete Klein]

Ford -- ROFLMAO!!!

 

John -- we dentists tend to laugh hysterically whilst viewing that scene. As Renfield murmured: Ah Hnn, Hnn, Hnn, Hnnnnnnnnn...

[Pete Klein]

Ford -- over the years I have read that Onin tsuba inlay were cast. Have you seen any evidence to substantiate this or do you feel it was the same inlay as with Heianjo?

PS: I am not referring to the ten-zogan but the other, flat inlay (hira zogan)? Sorry, the terminology sometimes escapes me.

[Ford Hallam]

Pete,

 

the idea that brass pieces were pre-cast for inlay or cast in situ is not, in my opinion, at all practical nor really feasible. Neither can I see any need for the pieces to be thus produced. Even today I'd personally find it more bother to precast pieces were I to replicate a Heianjo tsuba.

 

I did write a fairly extensive explanation of why I reject the notion, I'm sure it can be found, it's on this forum somewhere :-)

 

The whole issue with casting and tosogu, whether it be steel tsuba or soft metal fitting, menuki and the like, is that it wasn't at all as simple as people like to imagine. Today, with our vastly improved refractory materials and sophisticated kilns etc. fine casting is within the reach of almost any small studio. Prior the the second world war, though, it was a time consuming and expensive procedure. More so in old Japan. Today we refer to casting as an easy and cheap manufacturing process that allows for mass production and is relatively unskilled. The process is synonymous with cheap knock offs. Even 200 years ago it was a very complicated and time consuming procedure though.

 

And whereas we have extensive documentation of casting procedures in Japan that document the level of the technology in both cast iron and bronze there's no evidence of small scale casting in either material nor can one imagine the technology making it feasible. Prof William Gowland's papers on the subject are about as comprehensive as one could hope for. He was employed by the Meiji Govt. to oversee the mint, among other metallurgical matters.

[Pete Klein]

Ford -- thanks as always. As you are aware dentists are quite involved around the casting of metals and it is part of our training, although generally not our everyday work. I remember in school how easy it was to get voids in a lost wax casting even with a sling centrifugal casting device. I can just imagine how difficult it would have been back then. I have always had my doubts about that Onin theory so thanks for the information.

BTW - Gowland's book is quite interesting and I look to it from time to time. (I love those old books)!

 

Take care,

 

Pete

 

PS: I just read that quote by Plank and it's hysterically true! LOL

[Jean]

A large one from my collection 8,8cm, almost intact:

[Thierry BERNARD]

Jean! I love it!

[seattle1]

Hello:

One hesitates to get into the maelstrom of "certain" opinions which seem to characterize recent discussions of tosogu, as in the concurrent Ezo dust up, strangely all within a broader area of the newest and most uncertain of all the samurai artifactual categories about which we know so little, but here goes.

To my eye the "test" piece is entirely right and of appropriate age. There is some awkwardness of execution here and there, however the theme is classic. I noticed at first glance that the elements within the discs appear to be integral with the surround. I believe that is much less common than for them to be inserted. I don't know whether it is more or less costly (time consuming) to do it that way, but it might indicate in the case of placed in designs - I hesitate to call them mon, but some are - which are not seen here, is that production was a specialization and division of labor economic organization, with the blank discs being held in reserve for a buyer to chose his preference, for insertion at the place of manufacture or elsewhere, or they were just done by another workman. In any event it is a nice tsuba and appears not to have been "played with" for many years.

Arnold F.

[Bazza]

Greetings All,

 

As one who has never made tsuba an intimate study I have read this thread with the greatest of interest and thank all for their passion. I present here for interest an unusual (kawari?) Yoshiro zogan tsuba in less than pristine condition. It is as I got it in antique koshirae long ago, the blade having cracked nearly in half by a goomba who tried to cut a tree with it...

 

In the first NBTHK Shinsa in New York 40-ish years ago this was awarded a Tokubetsu Kicho paper. The paper and translation are buried in my accumulation of stuff, so better show it here and now rather than wait until I've found the detail!!! With apologies to two Board members who are waiting on a reply from a year or more ago. Gomen.

 

In the closeup of the reverse side I'm not sure whether the black bits represent lacquer remnants or simply the rust and gunge of ages. This is partly why I have never "cleaned" it. Any advice on this is welcome and I would appreciate any comments on the tsuba itself. It seems evident that it is not in the same quality range as those previously presented.

 

Best regards,

BaZZa.

[Jean]

http://www.nona.dti.ne.jp/~sword/tuba/t0115kikyo.htm

 

Is it Yoshiro?

[ROKUJURO]

BaZZa,

 

an interesting TSUBA with some unusual (NAMBAN-ish?) elements! It looks somewhat older than the other ones which may have to do with corrosion. I have the impression that a different technique to fix the SHINCHU than that described by Ford has been used. Could that be?

[docliss]

Jean, if Bazza’s very nice tsuba is not Yoshiro zōgan then what is it? I have opened your link, and there is a marked similarity between these two tsuba, but sadly I am unable to translate the descriptive text. What a pleasure, though, to see such darkly patinated and unspoiled brass inlay.

 

Incidentally, I fail to recognise any namban influence in Bazza’s tsuba.

 

John L.

[Bazza]

Thank you for comments Jean, Jean C., and John L. As to "What is it?", the other descriptive term in my mind is Heianjo. When Alan Harvie saw this tsuba 40-ish years ago he said "Heianjo, Yoshiro, but which", or words to that effect as I'm remembering them today.

 

I meant to include a mention of Gary Murtha's two volumes on "The Samurai Sword - An American Perspective". In one of the volumes is a near identical tsuba to mine. It is very well photographed with shining, gleaming brass inlay. I think it was the garishness of the shinchu inlay on this tsuba that encouraged me to leave mine as I found it. Sadly as I scan my library shelves I cannot see either volume, so they are probably boxed away to make room for a new crop of books. It is said a polisher's home is crowded out with stones, so mine is crowded out with books...

 

http://www.amazon.com/Samurai-Sword-An- ... 0911311025

 

Regards,

BaZZa.

[Jean]

John, I was not inquiring about Bazza's tsuba, no doubt about it, but about the one I posted, I am not a tsuba specialist and I thought it might be Heianjo

[docliss]

I am sorry Jean, I misunderstood your reference. John L.

[dirk marshall]

Izumi no Kami Koike Yoshiro