A Yoshiro (?) mon tsuba

[Bernard]

Hello everybody,

This tsuba is 8.1cm X 7.8cm (0.25cm at the edge, 0.4cm at the center). The real colour of the iron is difficult to capture on the photographs. I would say it is grey/brown.

I have seen several of this kind on the Internet. Most seem to be 19th century late revival.

What do you think of this one ?

Regards.

Bernard D

[Stefan]

I do not think that this is an old example in my humble opinion.

The zogan does not look correct. it is partial only gilded and not as usual true hirazogan. At a first glance i thought of partial uttori, unusal, but possible in Yoshiro, but this is also not the case.

Even the fallen out parts are looking strange.

Most probably I am wrong, I am no expert in kodogu.

Greetings from Germany

Stefan

[Geraint]

I see why Stefan suggest partial gilding and not true inlay but I think that may be the photograph; top edge on the second image I think I see some very small losses which would indicate true zogan.

 

Bernard this is turning into a very enjoyable collection of tsuba, thank you for sharing them with us.

 

All the best.

[Bernard]

Thank you very much Stefan and Geraint for the kind comments.

Glad to know you like my posts; I shall add more in the next days (these items were collected by my father in the years 1950-1980).

The observations of the members' forum are very informative and precious for me. I appreciate.

I add a pic to show the inlay.

Best regards from Switzerland.

Bernard D

[docliss]

Bernard, you are providing us with some very interesting tsuba; the latest is indeed Kaga Yoshirō Zōgan work. It demonstrates typical Yoshirō shinchū-zōgan, with karakusa and large, openwork, circular inlays of mon. There is an incised line bordering the brass inlay.

 

The rectangular shape of the kozuka- and kōgai-hitsu, together with the gold, decoratively stamped insert in the former, suggest an early date – possibly the early eighteenth century.

 

Lease let us see some more!

 

John L.

[Bernard]

Thank you very much, John !

Bernard D

[Thierry BERNARD]

Hi

 

sorry but to my eyes it's doesn't look like a real Yoshiro tsuba!

not shinchū-zōgan but just gold paint

not a real kōgai-hitsu insert

[Guido]

I'm with Thierry, but would rather say gilded than painted.

[Stefan]

I am sorry to say, even with the new pic i can´t change my opinion from my first post that this is not real zogan.

With the help of an magnifying glass it is relativ clear visible

 

Greetings

Stefan

[Grey Doffin]

I've been wondering the same since I first saw this thread. The rectangular hitsu-ana isn't plugged; it never was opened. I see many instances of incising to accept inlay but I see nothing that looks like inlay. And for the most part the guilding doesn't closely follow the incising. I've kept quiet since I'm not an authority and didn't want to call something wrong and be wrong myself, but it seems there are too many red flags on this one. It isn't right.

Grey

[Soshin]

I'm with Thierry, but would rather say gilded than painted.

Hi,

 

I would agree with Guido S. likely a mercury gilding which is a real technique when used not to simulate Shinchu Hira-Zogan (flat brass inlay). I hope I am wrong but to me it looks like a quality Japanese reproduction.

[runagmc]

If it was a quality Japanese reproduction, wouldn't they have used the original production technique of that which they were trying to reproduce?

 

I wouldn't think these are real inlays either, just because you see so many areas where the application of the gold/bronze looks rubbed/abraded away.

[Brian]

Just because something isn't the obvious technique...does not make it a fake. It could be something completely different.

I would suggest that this is a perfectly legitimate tsuba, not trying too hard to be a Kaga work. The plate and age seems better than a fake. Perhaps just a tsuba in the style of....

 

Brian

[BIG]

Katchushi ?

[Davis]

My knowledge of tsuba is negligible but I still found this discussion very interesting. I have something similiar. All I can say for certain, is that it is 7cm x 7cm x3mm. The walls of the sukashi mons/flowers seem to have a coat of verdigris/old wax. The brass is definately inset into the iron. How old can it be, is mine a later copy?

Regards

Mick

[Thierry BERNARD]

nice tsuba Mick! no missing inlay which is uncommon

for the era I would say early edo

[dirk marshall]

 

Doesn't this style predate the previous two?

[marcus]

Bernard,

In regard to the tsuba in the first image of this post, I am would have to politely disagree with those who are calling this anything other than true inlay. If one looks carefully at the image you can see missing pieces of the inlay. Also, the galvanic reaction between iron and a more noble metal such as brass, will cause the shadow of rust on to the brass over time as the iron is sacrificed. Also, the method of mercury gilding is only applicable to soft metals, not iron.

Thank you for showing,

Marcus

[Bernard]

Thanks to you Marcus.

Bernard D

[Soshin]

Hi Marcus and Bernard D.,

 

This is the fundamental limitation with only looking at photos of your tsuba. Myself nor anyone else on this forum can be 100% certain by looking at relatively low resolution photos of item in question on a computer screen. This is one reason why all formal appraisals by Japanese sword societies are done in person with the item in hand and not via email. :lol:

 

Bernard, in regards to your father's collection I would recommend you submit some of the nicer pieces (base on feedback on NMB) of your father's collection for formal appraisal by one of the Japanese sword societies such as the NBTHK, NTHK, or NTHK-NPO. If you live in Europe I do know that the NTHK sometimes visits England to do appraisal meetings. Yes I am aware this costs money but this is a expensive hobby and all of your pieces were free in the first place. This can't be said for anything in my current collection.

[Pete Klein]

Marcus - I believe you are onto something. What I believe happened in fabrication of this tsuba was the iron plate was shaped, round sukashi and hitsu-ana opened, primary plate inlay detailing carved then inlayed with brass along with the brass mons and hitsu-ana liners being placed, the brass and iron plate carved with detailing (kebori?), and 'then' the piece was guilt/accented. However, I am not certain if the iron patina was done before or after gilding. In any case this accounts for why you see areas of inlay loss and also gilding loss along with the gilding not being 100% in line with the carved detailing.

[Jorgensen]

Nice tsuba... I like it!

 

It reminds me of this one from the book "One Hundred Masterpieces from the Collection of Dr. Walter A. Compton"... I have attached pictures, if it can be any help...

 

The measures are close, thickness is the same and nakago ana does look to be pretty much same shape too... However the wine leafs inlays on your tsuba dont look to be same quality as the one in Comptons book, but overall its not far from... Thats what I see...

[yogoro]

Koike Naomasa Yoshiro zogan tsuba and few brass inlay Yoshiro/Onin tsuba

[marcus]

Pete,

I think you are half right in your description of the process. Logically, the plate would be formed, the design layout done, the inlay completed, the sukashi, the plug for the ana, the design finished with the kebori work, the patina on the iron, and then for the brass. To cut out the sukashi and then inlay on top of it makes no sense, as it would over complicate the process. With brass being very, very difficult to gild in the fist place, it also makes sense that copper would have been used. It is much easier to gild if that was the desired effect. Also, we have been told that shinchu, brass was extremely valuable when it was introduced from China, so again, why not end with the copper? On top of that, gilding would be quite problematic due to possible overheating the other fine inlay.

I hope this helps clear, and not muddy the waters further.

Cheers,

Marcus

[Pete Klein]

Those mons are through and through and the brass is cast. I've seen these tsuba with them punched out. It's also why they are circular. I am assuming the hitsuana were done in the same way but cannot tell from the pictures.

 

Here is a link to an example without the mons: http://www.cgfinearts.com/select_produc ... alleryID=2

[marcus]

Pete,

It makes no sense procedurally, and goes against the Japanese idea of conservation of materials to cast the Mon into the plate. It would be much easier to inlay and the cut through both the inlay and the iron ground. The second image posted shows fairly clearly the distinct layer of brass and the iron underneath. Believe it or not, but it would be easier to cut through iron than brass of that thickness. Plus you are only doing it once. Your method would involve cut out the round hole, casting and then cutting out the brass. Why not just do it in one shot?

Again, we are talking about economy of energy as well as materials, which is at the heart of Japanese craft.

BTW, the example in your link would have been done by means of a thin strip of brass make into a hoop, and then inserted into the sukashi and worked down on both sides to secure it in place.

Cheers,

Marcus

[Pete Klein]

Also quite possible that a plug of brass or possibly an alloy of yamagane was driven into the holes and the design was carved out as these softer metals carve more readily than steel. Very difficult to tell from the pictures but the technique is known historically.

[marcus]

Pete,

Possible, but highly unlikely. You would be left with a pile of metal chips that would be usable again by mean of yet more time and resources. Again, the economy of time and materials was/is paramount in Japanese craft. It would again be far easier, more efficient, and save more material just to proceed as I have described earlier. This, after all, was a business, and they would have gone the most efficient time/money/materials saving way possible. And again, this kind of economy of materials was/is at the heart of Japanese craft. If you were running the business, would you not want to use the most time/money saving process for making your product? I know I would and do!

Cheers,

Marcus :D

[Ford Hallam]

Gentlemen, for your consideration.

 

Bernard's tsuba

 

 

and a similar example from the Sano Art Museum. They describe it as Yoshiro, 17th century.

 

 

I think we need to allow for differences in colour and tone due to print quality and lighting but I would suggest the workmanship is essentially identical. If not actually made by the same man then at least there would seem to a likelihood they were made in the same street in the same decade.

[Bernard]

Ford, you found an almost identical one !

Here is one more pic, with natural lighting.

Bernard D