Stranger & stranger

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

Darcy, Brian,

 

If you had a little knowledge about swords techniques, you would have seen what must be seen

[george trotter]

what do you mean Jacques?

[Guido]

[Stephen]

and once more a intersting thread has spin off to bordom

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

George

 

The other videos i posted show it better. Drawing a Japanese sword needs the use of other parts of the body than arms. Shoulders and hips are also mobilized.

[Dr Fox]

Hi Jacques

 

Trying to clarify for myself the point you are making to George. The thread is, drawing a long sword carried blade up at the waist! You have indicated your video, and I thought it was to show the draw of the Katana. If this is the case this is where I am confused.

 

The sword drawn does not look to me to have a nagasa of 82.5cms, therefor, how does this show the technique of drawing a blade, of excessive length? You seem so firm on this point, please put me right.

 

Denis.

[Jean]

Maximum length for (unsheathing) blade is arm length+/- torso diagonale.

But it shows its limit in Iaido, in the links provided, mathematically in close fighting, both opponants being of the same skill, the man with the shortest sword will win. It takes less time to draw a short sword than a long one. Zatoïchi character is based on this fact.

[kusunokimasahige]

Has anyone here remembered that really long swords in general were carried on the back ?

 

 

KM

[Ken-Hawaii]

Yes, Henk-Jan, but there's not a whole lot of information available on exactly how that was done.

 

Ken

[J Reid]

They weren't drawn from the back though.. As far as I know they had an assistant hold the saya while being drawn.

[Toryu2020]

Gentlemen -

With one thousand years of history comes one thousand different styles of wearing and using a sword. For some schools the draw involves use of the hips and waist, in others very long swords can be drawn using just the left and right hands and the judicious use of "timing." Swords were worn on the back and can be drawn over the shoulder or under if you know what you are doing. To say that it wasn't done or there is only one way is a mistake. For every application there was usually more than one devised to defeat it, many of these "tricks" fell by the wayside and today what we see are the schools and techniques proven by battle and by their (technical/teaching) logic.

 

Gyaku menuki are indeed a feature of Yagyu koshirae but like many of the variations we see a matter of taste and used by a number of practitioners. Myself included,

-t

 

We really need a Swords and Swordsmen section on this forum...

[Baka Gaijin]

Morning all,

 

These links may be interesting and enlightening:

 

http://www.hyoho.com/Nkage1.html

 

 

 

 

Cheers

[Darcy]

Hi,

 

Darcy, Brian,

 

If you had a little knowledge about swords techniques, you would have seen what must be seen

 

Jacques, the thing is just a humorous poke that your arguments tend to from a rather simplistic point of contradiction. Your response above is just one more "no it isn't."

 

I think you're an intelligent guy so the discussions would be more helpful to other people if you discussed your point intelligently, instead of in the most confrontational and unpleasant manner possible. You have some knowledge to share, and it's nice when shared instead of as a tool to insult.

 

As funny as Monty Python is they actually rather magnificently laid out what an argument should be an something can be learned from it.

 

None of us know everything about swords, first because nobody here is really what I would call an expert, including me for sure (real experts are few and far between), but mostly because what happened back then is really not known. You tend to argue from a point of view of what your personal experience is. If you haven't seen it, then it does not exist, or if you saw this other thing then all things must be like that.

 

Furthermore as Tom has pointed out, there is definitely the three blind men and the elephant thing going on here. I've found that in particular with your arguments that you interpret a definitive and closed truth based on what you've personally encountered. So you saw in a book 50 signatures of a smith, if a 51st signature comes along that does not match those 50 it must be wrong because it's outside your experience. If you saw this man draw a sword in a certain way, then swords were drawn in this way and that is the beginning and the end of the truth. Like the blind man who holds the elephant by the leg, asked to describe the elephant he says it is like a tree. The man who touches the elephant at the trunk says no you're wrong, an elephant is like a snake. The man who is touching the elephant at its side says you are all wrong, an elephant is quite like the wall of a room covered in leather.

 

What Tom says above is that the truth is more complicated because of changing times, techniques and use. I add to that by saying not only is that so but we have no means of verifying very much of anything. To sit on a single hard truth is to be rather absurd and to respond to anyone who is trying to reason something out and theorize with "no it isn't" doesn't contribute anything.

 

It doesn't make you look smart either, it does just the opposite. Nobody learns anything and you do nothing but offend people. An agenda based on offending people is common on the internet, we call them trolls, but hopefully this is a place where people can be students together.

 

It's one of the reasons I don't contribute much. I'm overstepping my bounds here but I wish people would aim a little bit higher than right at the gonads of the other members on the board when they have an opportunity, then everyone will get more out of the experience.

 

Nihonto is a very fuzzy topic at the end of the day. We lack information because of the language barrier. The Japanese lack information because it doesn't exist. We are taught things by tradition that goes back centuries and hadn't been questioned as often as it should, and would be in a modern sense so we propagate things which are not necessarily true, and because none of us are experts it's possible to have the blind leading the blind all day long. So by all means, theorize and speculate because at the end of the day just because it's not in a book someone else read doesn't mean that it might not be valid or valuable.

 

Hopefully as a group we can each contribute enough to patch up each other's knowledge and that, as well as enjoying the discussion, was why the board came about in the first place. Missing out on those two reasons is defeating the entire purpose of this board being here, and the reasons why most everyone comes here.

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

Darcy,

 

When i don't know about something, i keep my mouth shut (example kodogu). In fact sori doesn't matter drawing a sword. If your are able to draw à 90 cm katana you will be able to draw à 90 cm straight sword. Nagasa is a straight line and even, if because the sori, the sword is really longer, the tip is not farest from the handle than a straight sword.

 

After that, know-how is important. A tsuka is not a pickaxehandle.

 

look the video i posted above at 22 sec.

 

 

Darcy...

Remenber that :

 

http://www.nihontomessageboard.com/mei_exercise.html

 

You were largely mistaken on it, nevertheless i kept quiet.

[Jean]

We just know about Nihonto by the books we have read, most of them have invaluable information, but they must be taken with a pinch of salt, because knowledge has tremendously in creased in the last decade.

 

Take Nihonto Koza for example, it has been written decades ago and knowlege has greatly increased.

 

Never say never, as an example, about Oei Bizen smiths the author states that he has never seen a blade signed Bishu Osafune .... without nengo. It did not mean it did not exist. There are several examples in NBTHK Zufu.

 

Quoting books is not knowledge, there is a lot of difference between "savoir" et "connaissance". Knowlege is not quoting books. Nobody can argue something does not exist because ha has not encountered/seen it. That's why there is no experts on the Board, no one has the necessary experience, there are only more or less experienced people.

[kusunokimasahige]

A tsuka is not a pickaxehandle.

 

That does not mean that the sword cannot or would not be wielded in the manner of a pick-axe in a battle.

It is a fact that swords were used in this way.

 

You can come up with all kinds of elaborate and rigid Koryu techniques and the romanticized view on sword wielding, but in a pitched sengoku battle between armies technique would be the first thing which would have been discarded. Battle is a slugging match in that respect, and not comparable to a duel.

 

I must say I agree with Darcy here, especially with the historic paradigm he is discussing, the "lost in translation" part as well as the things he says about Mei.

 

Most of us are not experts. We cannot even say that the Hon'ami family during the Edo period were true experts, since they handed out certificates for money and made full use of the benefits bestowed on them in their really early years by the Court.

 

KM

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

There are several examples in NBTHK Zufu.

 

Jean

Please, feel free to share oshigata and descriptions with us.

 

KM,

 

You can come up with all kinds of elaborate and rigid Koryu techniques and the romanticized view on sword wielding, but in a pitched sengoku battle between armies technique would be the first thing which would have been discarded. Battle is a slugging match in that respect, and not comparable to a duel.

 

You should make some research about Katori Shinto Ryu,

[kusunokimasahige]

Ah. I should research Katori Shinto Ryu.

 

We have Katori Shinto Ryu in the Netherlands (at a very high level), just so you know. And Yagyu Ryu.

It is not something I am unfamiliar with.

 

Ever been in a battle yourself Jacques ?

 

We have combat veterans on the board. They can tell you exactly what happens in a real battle and how much of your training you actually remember, as well as how much equipment you will ditch.

 

 

Furthermore, I would like you to see and hear what Otake Risuke sensei himself has to say about the Sengoku period and the involvement of Samurai in Katori Shinto Ryu during that era.

 

 

All in good cheer.

 

KM

[cabowen]

I find Jean and Tom's comments to be quite apropos. No doubt there is no substitute for first hand experience and thus we can't really have definitive answers to all of the issues that surface here.

 

You won't find all the answers in books or on the computer. You won't find them all in the dojo, at the kantei-kai, in the tanrenjo, at the togi dai, in the museum, at the lab or the Dai Token Ichi. You won't find them all in a lifetime of living in Japanese culture. But, if you want to learn as much as possible, you would do well to spend as much time in all of these places as possible because there is information in all of them, unique to each of them, that is crucial to a well rounded understanding of Nihon-to...It bears keeping in mind that Nihon-to were not created or used in a vacuum. They are a reflection of their times and the culture they were an integral part of...Many times one will find that the answers can't be found by applying Western Logic 101. Conversely, you would be surprised how much you can learn about Nihon-to by spending an hour in the aisles of a 7-11 combini in Japan. Some have tried to buy their way up the ladder but that usually ends "poorly" :lol: ...I think it telling that some of the most knowledgeable sword people I have met own few or no swords...

 

It is only natural that we each apply our own experiences and problem solving methods when confronted by a conundrum but it wouldn't hurt to be conscious of the limitations of both our personal experiences and our problem solving methods in light of the above. There is a wealth of varied experience here that many share rather selflessly. While it has been said that there are no experts here, I disagree. I think there are several people here that bring an expert level of knowledge to certain topics. No one knows everything about everything, but there are people here who are extremely knowledgeable on select topics. I respect their experience and knowledge and appreciate greatly their contributions.

 

There are few places I know of that can offer as much for so little.

[kusunokimasahige]

Chris, of course you are right in that respect. I see the NMB as a place where friendly learning is key.

 

It stimulates us and makes us want to delve deeper into these matters. It is not a place where members play a game of "I know better than you, na na na na naaa naaa".

 

My words above might have sounded rather harsh and condascending in reaction to the condascending remark I received, but they are well meant and in good cheer.

 

I love learning more and more every day, and look towards the fellow members in the community who know much more than me with awe at times. But, I also do suffer from the Historian's academic perspective at times.

 

KM

[cabowen]

But, I also do suffer from the Historian's academic perspective at times.

 

KM

 

We all suffer from our own perspective; some make others suffer as well..... :lol:

[Stephen]

what were we OPing about?

[Ken-Hawaii]

Yeah, Stephen, not that these comments aren't interesting, but as the OP, I believe I started wondering why a very long blade had katana mei....

 

But please don't let that stop you!

 

Ken

[runagmc]

I don't know Darcy from Jacques, even if they were standing right in front of me... so it's completely unbiased when I say "amen" to Darcy's post (so he doesn't think his words have completely fallen on deaf ears).

 

I can never figure out why some of the most knowledgeable people will only use that knowledge and experience to inflat their own egos (the little tidbits of knowledge are PRICELESS to those with less experience) This board would serve it's purpose much better if we did our best to leave our egos at the door. I know it's difficult, but... (Also, I realize I have 3 fingers pointing back at me right now---although I have little to be proud about anyway--- )

 

Example-Jacques bringing up Darcy's article- (You were wrong, but I held my tongue)- DON'T hold your tongue if you disagree! But you should have to make some effort at PROVING YOURSELF if you want to so casually tell other's that they are wrong... Especially when stating everything as fact. MUST SHOW YOUR WORK! :D

 

Anyway, thanks to all who have contributed to the knowledge of the board, regardless of how it was done.

 

PS- Most of the above is not directed at any specific person/persons, since I think most of us are at fault on one level or another...

 

Also, sorry for ANOTHER derailment Ken...

[Ken-Hawaii]

I really wasn't being at all sarcastic when I said to keep on with your comments, Adam. There are many times that I get as much, or more, from a tangential comment as from the original topic. I am glad that we have such a wide range of viewpoints on NMB!

 

Ken

[george trotter]

...I think it telling that some of the most knowledgeable sword people I have met own few or no swords...

 

I must agree Chris...Albert Yamanaka told me he had never seen a sword he "had to have". Whether he owned any I don't know...but he did call a spade a spade!

Regards,

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

Example-Jacques bringing up Darcy's article- (You were wrong, but I held my tongue)- DON'T hold your tongue if you disagree! But you should have to make some effort at PROVING YOURSELF if you want to so casually tell other's that they are wrong... Especially when stating everything as fact. MUST SHOW YOUR WORK!

 

 

Ok i will open a new thread and explain why Darcy was wrong on it.

[Bazza]

We all suffer from our own perspective; some make others suffer as well..... :lol:

 

LOL is right!!! Chris' comment had me in stitches as a general life saying summing up places I've been and bastards I've met. The following few posts had me loudly guffawing as well. And Stephen's comment "what were we OPing about?" nearly threw me over the edge.

 

I love this Board - the wonderful experts of all persuasions, the (mostly) unstinting sharing of knowledge, the camaraderie, the humour - and the succinct expression of it (the cartoons in this thread have been priceless!). I read far, far more than I contribute because I come at the lower end of the knowledge and competence scale, but I soak up the knowledge proffered and absorb it like a sponge. Here in my Oz mountain retreat I don't get around so much or see such a lot of swords, but there are good people within a reasonable driving distance with nice swords - and they are lovely people and such good company that life in swords is by and large a great joy in this Nihonto backwater. I've even met some of them through NMB. Thank you all for an engaging and challenging thread - and all the others.

 

Bestests,

BaZZa.

[Eric H]

Albert Yamanaka told me he had never seen a sword he "had to have". Whether he owned any I don't know.

 

In this context I have a very interesting essay by Paul R. Allman. He got a gift from Albert Yamanaka a „fine old Koto blade...adding “to my great regret I have sold it“.

 

Eric

[george trotter]

 

He got a gift from Albert Yamanaka a „fine old Koto blade...adding “to my great regret I have sold it“.

 

I don't think Albert would mind... but I can understand that Mr Allman would

Regards,