Jump to content

Recommended Posts

Posted

At our monthly sword club meeting yesterday, an older gentleman brought in an interesting blade. At first glance , I was sure he had brought a tachi - the hacho is 32.5 inches, the nakago is ubu, & my estimate on sori is about 1.75 inches. However, when the blade was passed to me for examination, it obviously had katana mei. When I spoke with him briefly after the meeting, he said the NBTHK papered it to Kaga no Morimitsu, & that it is mid-Muromachi. But I can't figure out why it wouldn't have tachi mei. Swords were transitioning from tachi to katana during Muromachi, but would that have any bearing on where the mei was located?

 

Ken

Posted

Hi Ken.

 

If the blade is mid Muromachi then that would be a little late for the tachi/katana transition so katana mei would be expected by then I think.

 

All the best.

Posted

John, the blade is so long & heavy that I doubt anyone would be strong enough to wield it as an uchigatana. And with so long a hacho, it would be very difficult to draw either as tachi or katana, speaking as a sword-swinger myself.

 

It's too bad that I can't read Kanji & so can't tell you exactly how the mei read. The owner told me what it said, & there were so many members & guests in our meeting room that I only got a minute or so with him.

 

Ken

Posted
John, the blade is so long & heavy that I doubt anyone would be strong enough to wield it as an uchigatana. And with so long a hacho, it would be very difficult to draw either as tachi or katana, speaking as a sword-swinger myself.

 

Hi Ken,

 

interesting topic again :D .

May I ask why it should have a tachi mei?

For an Uchigatana it´s long maybe, but in general 32" nagasa shouldn´t be a problem, regarding strength and the drawing issu ;) .

 

Greetings

 

ruben

Posted

Just my opinion but with correct saya-biki a 32" sword is easy to draw. Our soke is 5'4" and swings a 34" blade with no issues and can draw it on you in very close proximity.

 

I think it just boils down to what you train with and what you prefer.

 

Regards,

Posted

I think it may also have something to do with user height, arm length and blade length?

A mid-Muromachi (c.1500) katana with a hacho of 32.5 inches (82.5 cm) and a sori estimated to be 1.75 inches (4.5 cm). I am not a swordsman, but that seems to be a pretty long sword to be a katana, considering the average height/arm length of a Muromachi man.

How about an experiment on predicting the sori of this blade...Ken could maybe confirm the "winner".

 

Muromachi man was about 5 feet 2 inches (157.5 cm) tall having an arm reach of approx. 21.5 inches (54.5 cm) with fist closed.

(This length is calculated as follows...I am 6 foot 2 inches (188 cm) and my right arm is 2 foot 1.5 inches (65 cm) with fist clenched, so, measuring my 5 foot 4 inch (162.5 cm) wife, her arm with fist clenched (her usual stance haha) as 22 inches (56 cm), the slightly shorter Muromachi man would be slightly shorter in the arm also).

 

Can the shorter swordsmen (many of whom prefer longer than uchigatana type swords) here opine as to how easy/hard this sword would be to draw for a non-horseback-mounted Muromachi man wearing it as a katana and also opine as to the type of sori (koshi/torii/saki) that should be present and we can compare this against the type of sori on the sword Ken saw (if he can say?)?

 

It may turn out that the draw/sori is not relevant to each other...but I feel it is, so this may be a practical way of testing the matter?...my belief is based on the following:

A tachi mounted sword used on horseback can be straighter in the blade because the owner is sitting and can lengthen the hanging straps to adjust the sword to hang down lower on his side while seated...he then has a longer straighter drawing movement.

If he was now standing on the ground with the sword mounted as a katana, the sayaguchi is higher and his length of drawing becomes shorter, thus requiring a sharp arc to withdraw the blade, so a deep sori is needed in the blade...I don't know which is best (torii or saki) but I suspect saki would be best.

This is just based on my reasoning so I may be way out of line. You practical swordsmen may be able to comment from experience and predict the sori needed (or not) in the Muromachi katana blade wielded by a samurai?

Regards,

Posted

As Chris has pointed out.. "Generally" swords are custom made for the man swinging it and everyone is different..

 

I am 6'0 and I personally find it easier to control a sword with a longer nagasa (28'-31')and deep sori (1.5'-2.0') as oppose to a sword of about 26.5' with minimal sori (0.9'-1.1'). Now, drawing a sword edge up is easier with a straighter blade.. But drawing on angles with edge to the side or edge down in bukezukuri mountings is easier with sori and a longer nagasa. You also get better range of motion and more control when using your hips with an explosive technique. This would be my "everyday sword"

 

On a side note though.. If I was a samurai going to battle during feudal times, and I knew I would be in a crowd of slashing and stabbing crazies, I would want to be armed with a naginata or yari, 2 uchigatana (of about 24.0' nagasa, 1.3' sori )and a tanto of about 20 cm. I would wield 2 light short swords. Not some big clunker. haha

It is no surprise to me to see a wide range of variances with weapons in general. Everyone has their fancy.

 

 

EDIT: Bottom line.. I wouldn't want my "everyday sword" to be a short uchigatana nor want to go to battle with my "everyday sword"..

Posted

Hi,

 

This is just based on my reasoning so I may be way out of line

 

Yes you are.

 

 

Not everyone was "average"! Swords were not usually made for the "average man", but for a specific person.

 

Shodai Iga no kami Kinmichi was ordered by Tokugawa Ieyasu to make 1000 swords within a 3 months period. I dont' think they were for specific men. Same for the Kazu-uchi mono made in Bizen, MIno and Kaga. Same for the swords exported in Korea.

Posted

Perhaps the sword was made for someone left handed...and therefore was requested to be signed on the opposite side. Or maybe the smith was under the weather that day and signed the wrong side. Or he wanted to do something different and have people scratch their heads 500 years later... :freak:

The point is, there are any number of odd reasons why something could have been done. The trick is not to over think it, and get into nit picking arguments. There can BE NO definitive answer to this one..as we don't have the smith here.

Can see it's getting to the end of the year again.

 

Brian

Posted

Why is it so unusual to see a long sword signed katana mei during a time where swords were worn edge up? Not to mention the term "exceptions to every rule"..

 

Just because one handed uchigatana were the fad for battle during this time doesn't mean that samurai didn't enjoy a good ol' long sword in their off time.

Posted

Just to add to the pile here.. In Markus's book "koshirae: Japanese sword mountings" pg. 111-117 he generally discusses the evolution of swords during the muromachi period. He says that "uchigatana first experienced a reduction in length to the single-handed katate-uchi, and then later again an increase in length" (Uchigatana were first designed for low ranking soldiers).. "During the middle of muromachi period i.e. around the mid 15th century, the trend also started for high-ranking warriors to wear longer uchigatana, instead of the koshigatana as the sashizoe on the battlefield" (Goodbye tachi)..

 

 

So basically.. High ranking warriors "generally" went from tachi directly to long uchigatana. Short katateuchi were for low ranking warriors while tachi were still the fad and then eventually all uchigatana were longer as the norm for all ranks near the end of the muromachi period. Hence the transition from tachi to katana.

 

So Ken, that's probably why you have a long sword signed katana mei from the mid muromachi. They were in fad at this point for high ranking officials.

Posted

What I forgot to point out is that the nakago is about 14 inches long, although I didn't measure it with my tape. Isn't that too long to be considered an uchigatana?

 

Ken

Posted

Well that changes everything!! Hahaha..... hmm.. odachi with an exception to the rule mei? Or maybe a wealthy high ranking officials sword who liked using over exaggerated swords.. again in markus's book he shoss an example of 2 aikuchi-uchigatana koshirae worn by uesugi kenshin (1530-1578). Kenshin liked wearing "such overlong" swords paired with a tachi because he wanted to still be able to fall back onto a long sword in the case of an emergency.. one of the koshirae in the picture look to have a 10-12 inch tsuka and a 28-32 saya. So i guess its possible.

Posted
What I forgot to point out is that the nakago is about 14 inches long, although I didn't measure it with my tape. Isn't that too long to be considered an uchigatana?

Ken

 

Dear Ken,

 

14 iches... about 35 cm... that is huge, it is a sword for two hands, made for primary two hands.

But how does it look like?

A picture would be nice of course.

Is the nakago straight, I suppose not!?

 

Greetings!

 

ruben

Posted

Our sword club has a policy of no photos at our meetings, especially of blades brought in by non-members, so I don't have any to share.

 

Yes, Ruben, the sword is huge, no question. That's why I initially thought it was an ubu tachi, just from looking at it in shirasaya. Our club president, Dr. Glenn Hayashi, who is far more expert than I, just sent this to me when I asked him about the katana mei:

 

That is part of the puzzle for this blade which has several inconsistencies. He said that it was papered as Morimitsu, but I don't think a sword in that condition would paper and the kissaki is not consistent with Oei Morimitsu. I have a Nambokucho Morimitsu, but the kissaki isn't consistent with that smith either. The sugata is Kamakura, probably Bizen, but the nioiguchi is nie deki. Bizen Kamakura would be nioi deki. I saw utsuri (very faint), but the hamon was togari (pointed), and Bizen Kamakura would be suguha or choji midare. Because of the utsuri and the nie deki, the sword is most likely Muromachi, Bizen (Soden), and a Kamakura utsushi. That's my guess.

 

I did see the origami, & one of our senior advisers told me that the blade is attributed to Morimitsu.

 

Ken

Posted

I may be wrong but isn't there a distinction between uchigatana and katate-uchigatana?

 

I don't think the tsuka length would matter unless we are talking about katate-uchi only.

 

Regards,

Posted

As far as I understand, uchigatana is the type of koshirae (thrust through the obi, worn edge up) and katate-uchi is the type of blade ( one handed fighting sword). If its not for one handed use, its just an uchigatana. Katate-uchi are made with specific dimensions, and O-suriage blades mounted to be used as one handed fighting swords would be a "grey area", imo. I think this blade is just a large and early example of a blade meant to be mounted edge up and so signed as such.

Posted

I have held a katana with the menuki position reversed. I was told that it was a sword for a left handed samurai. There may be ryu where the style is to use menuki in reversed position.

Posted
I have held a katana with the menuki position reversed. I was told that it was a sword for a left handed samurai. There may be ryu where the style is to use menuki in reversed position.

 

Hi Barry,

It is not uncommon to see "left-handed" menuki on WWII gunto Type 98 tsuka. I always thought it was to allow an officer to have a pistol in his right hand, but it doesn't really make sense when all the pics I've seen from Toyama Academy showing Toyama Ryu practise show the sword held "right-handed". So, left hand menuki may be just a personal preference...the sword still held right handed as Ken says.

Regards,

Posted

From my understanding gyaku-menuki positioning is more practical as it sits in the palm swells. Most if not all tachi were this way and I have seen quite a few uchigatana with the menuki in this position.

 

On gunto swords up to about 1943 I see them in the reversed position then the remaining years they were switched back.

 

Regards,

Posted
Hi,

 

Yes you are.

 

 

216-katana-it-can-cut-through-a-tank-no-really-i-saw-it-on-the-internet-somewhere.jpg

 

3oj76v.jpg

 

If you spent less time trolling and looking for claims to refute, and more time actually discussing theories and expressing your own opinion....we might take these points more seriously Jacques. :doubt:

 

Brian

This thread is quite old. Please consider starting a new thread rather than reviving this one, unless your post is really relevant and adds to the topic..

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
×
×
  • Create New...