Informal Tsuba Kantei...

[Soshin]

Hi Everyone,

 

I would like to do a informal tsuba kantei of a tsuba new to my much smaller more focused collection. Here is the basic information about the unsigned iron tsuba that is unpapered.

 

Basic Measurments:

7.4 cm X 7.2 cm, thickness is 4.5 mm at rim and 4.8 at seppa-dai.

 

Rim Shape:

Square shape.

 

Other Noticable Features:

Very sandy and hard iron with lamination layers of the iron visible along the inside surfaces of the openwork and to a less extant the rim. The rim also display iron bones.

 

What I am looking for in the answers is the approximate period of production, area of production, openwork design, and school or group that made the tsuba. Each bit of information is one point. I will write up a detail answer to all of these questions and added up the scores after a week or so. PM me if you have any questions.

[Brian]

David,

How do we do a kantei of a tsuba that is unpapered? Who decides what answers and wrong and who is right?

Does it have foolproof provenance and opinion?

 

Brian

[Henry Wilson]

 

School: Yagyu

Area: Owari

Design: Waves and possible spray (the hole under the kogai ana)

Period: I would say mid to late Edo.

 

[paulb]

As a totally non fittings person I would go with

 

Yagu

 

 

However whether it is an authentic piece or a later copy I couldn't guess. I am hoping one day someone can explain to me the enthusiasm and desirability of this type of work as to my uneducated eye they always look crude and clunky. I am sure I am missing all the key points

[ROKUJURO]

David,

 

it looks like a YAGYU theme, has YAGYU surface and dimensions.

[Alex A]

Yagyu, breaking waves design (tatsunami), early Edo.

 

Alex.

[Soshin]

David,

How do we do a kantei of a tsuba that is unpapered? Who decides what answers and wrong and who is right?

Does it have foolproof provenance and opinion?

 

Brian

 

Hi Brian R.,

 

The tsuba has a very good provenance that includes a high end international auction house but I would not say foolproof. Notice the following word in the title and body of the topic.

 

Informal

having a relaxed, friendly, or unofficial style, manner, or nature.

"an informal atmosphere"

synonyms: unofficial, casual, relaxed, easygoing, unceremonious

 

Hi Everyone,

 

Thanks for the participation so far. I will post my opinion as to the kantei of the tsuba later in about a week. I will post better photos over the weekend the current photo was taken with my iPhone.

[christianmalterre]

i think you are very correct here David giving your´s statement....

would make no sense in mine eyes so to just and only rely on facts already known to the submitter-Eh?(Laugh!)

Equally it´s a big game,making fun,sometimes sorting out as to ben mentioned even educational...

 

Concerning your´s very nice Tsuba here...

mine attr. would ben exactly(school and time only of course!)what is written on this Origami here...

 

Christian

[MauroP]

Hi David,

probably you made it too easy this time.

 

Period of production: Genroku or later (post-1688)

Area of production: Owari most probably (but some makers worked in Musashi province)

Openwork design: breaking waves with water drops (tatsunami sukashi no zu tsuba - 立波透図鐔)

School: Yagyū (柳生)

 

Bye, Mauro

[Soshin]

Hi Everyone,

 

To wrap up this informal tsuba kantei. Here is my is a write up of my opinion with additional photos. I will come up with the point scores and smiley face rewards shortly.

 

Basic Measurements:

7.4 cm X 7.2 cm, thickness is 4.5 mm at rim and 4.8 at seppa-dai.

 

Rim Shape:

Square shape.

 

Production School or Group:

Yagyû tsuba (柳生鍔) likely made by artisans of the Ôno (大野) school.

 

Approximate Period of Production:

Middle Edo Period (江戸時代中期) (~1670-1770)

 

Openwork Design:

marunami no zu (丸波図), fûsui no zu (風水図), or tatsunami no zu (立波図)

 

Location of Production:

Owari (尾張) Province

 

Kantei Explanation:

This is a classic Yagyû tsuba likely produced during the first period of production of Yagyû tsuba during the retirement life of Yagyû Ren' ya Yoshikane the 5th master of the Yagyû Shinkage Ryu school of Japanese swordsmanship (1675 – 1694). Official examination of a Yagyû tsuba produced during the first and second period of production will receive the direct “Yagyû” attribution. Later copies produced during the late Edo Peirod would receive the “Kodai Yagyû” attribution. The sandy hard iron display granular iron bones (tekkotsu 鉄骨) along the rim and well as the surface of the tsuba. The tsuba clearly displays lamination layers of the iron visible along the inside surfaces of the openwork and to a less extant the rim.

The design is listed in the book Yagyû-tsuba-zufu by Imaizumi Gennai Nobuharu as one of the 36 original designs directly attributed to Yoshikane during his retirement. The positive openwork (ji-sukashi 地透) design is often translated as meaning rounded or standing wave. An alternative translation for the meaning of this openwork design is fûsui (lit. surge) a swordsmanship concept taken from the Shinkage Ryu of counteracting an attack from a charging opponent.

The provenance of the tsuba is that it has been in the collection of a high end nihonto and tosogu collector in the USA and was recently up for sale at the Bohams Art of the Samurai auction in New York City. Here is a directly to it listing on Bohams auction website with additional photos: https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/21404/lot/1072/. It was the opinion of the original owner and Jeff Olson of Bohams that is tsuba was made in during the second period of Yagyû production for which I disagree.

 

P.S. I used the following references for my write up Owari to Mikawa no Tanko by Okamoto Yasukazu and a article written by Markus Sesko on this blog: http://markussesko.wordpress.com/2013/07/31/yagyu-tsuba/.

[Soshin]

Hi Everyone,

 

Here are the list of participants and Kantei point sources along with a smiley face rewards. :lol:

 

1. Henry W.

Point Score: 3/4

Reward: :D

 

2. Paul B.

Point Score: 0/4

Reward:

Remarks: "Yagu" is I think the sound I made when I hit myself with a set of nunchuks in Karate class. Here is a YouTube video of what I am talking about: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXvxtTTiMks.

 

3. Jean C.

Point Score: N/A*

Reward:

Remarks: *Answers reminded me of someone under oath in a court of law trying not to self incriminate himself. Making it very hard to judge.

 

4. Alex A.

Point Score: 2/4

Reward: :|

 

5. Christian M.

Point Score: 2/4

Reward:

Remarks: Love that you included the a picture but didn't include all of the information.

 

4. Mauro P.

Point Score: 3/4

Reward: :D

 

P.S. Here is a photo of the Yagyu tsuba ura side this afternoon in Sunlight near a window. Enjoy.

[Henry Wilson]

Thanks David

 

I think I should get a +* because I answered with speed.

 

:lol:

[paulb]

Dear David,

I am delighted that my mistyping of Yagyu gave you an opportunity to publicly display your razor sharp wit and diplomacy.

Before becoming involved in such activities again I will try and remember a well known saying

"better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all possible doubt"

Perhaps you might consider this on occasion as well.

[christianmalterre]

!

 

David...david...!

 

just an short add seriously considdering about comming from an yagyuphile like myself...

 

Production School or Group:

Yagyû tsuba (柳生鍔) likely made by artisans of the Ôno (大野) school.

mine comment:

?(rather NOP!)

 

Location of Production:

Owari (尾張) Province

mine comment:

?(rather NOP!)

 

now let´s turn that Yari...

mine question is WHY(?)

 

Christian

[MauroP]

Vita brevis, ars longa, occasio praeceps, experimentum periculosum, iudicium difficile...

Bye, Mauro

[Alex A]

Shows what reading books achieves, noticed similar tsuba in a Sasano book a few days earlier.

 

Alex.

[kusunokimasahige]

The crispness of the carving amazes me.

 

 

I must say however, that the image in the window is gorgeous. The colour variations alone are lovely.

 

KM

[Soshin]

!

 

David...david...!

 

just an short add seriously considdering about comming from an yagyuphile like myself...

 

Production School or Group:

Yagyû tsuba (柳生鍔) likely made by artisans of the Ôno (大野) school.

mine comment:

?(rather NOP!)

 

Location of Production:

Owari (尾張) Province

mine comment:

?(rather NOP!)

Hi Christian,

 

We agree in the most important point that is a nice Yagyu tsuba example. The other details would be a interesting discussion topic for a new thread. There are a few later Yagyu tsuba copies signed Bushu. Most of scholarly work done in Japan thinks Yagyu tsuba came from Owari Province. This is due in part to the documented Yagyu Shinkage Ryu swordsmanship being formally associated with Owari han and its training of samurai. Sasano in his books as well as others have put forward that many of the early Yagyu tsuba were made by independent artisans located in Owari Province including members of the Ôno school. I would not be completely surprised upon submitting this tsuba to shinsa if it comes back as being attributed to the Ôno School.

 

Hi KM,

 

Thanks for the reply. Keep in mind if carving was very crisp it wouldn't be a Yagyu tsuba. I like the fact that some carving is interrupted by iron bones and other features of the iron. The tsuba is not in the best condition but is still a really nice and classic example of a Yagyu tsuba in my opinion. I am planning to have this tsuba in my collection a very long time. :D

 

Hi Henry W.,

 

Thanks for the quick reply. I will give a 3+/4 score for the quick reply. :lol:

[christianmalterre]

Dear David

 

Nop again...and i do tell you equally why...

You do focus that much on that again and again mentioned publication "Tsuba an aesthetic Study" that it seems it´s a kind of "Bible"....?

Me but can tell you-it´s an just nice work for beginners starting study and need help in focusing themself plus what they see...

This is not an critic!-This just is an statement-no more no less...

it´s up to each one to go further and "play the game"(even it´s getting hard up to this moment i have to confess)

 

attached some further pictures of this very Tsuba you did purchase-i think you do not know them already...

I do post these add pictures so to help you in your´s study to it-they(pictures)do will give you an very strong indicative about which group and to which time this Tsuba got produced...

 

Yes-It´s an authentic Yagyu Tsuba!(of course!)

 

Iron and Execution of Iron -is the very most important thing!(if collecting Tsuba)

 

Of course!-Do definitely not worry!-It´s authentic,classical Yagyu of course...you made good in buying it for you i think...

 

Christian

[ROKUJURO]

..... Answer(s) reminded me of someone under oath in a court of law trying not to self incriminate himself. Making it very hard to judge....

David,

 

while I like your KANTEI games, I cannot believe that you obviously expected a firm statement concerning the provenance of your TSUBA. It may well be a YAGYU, but in the end we have only photos to judge upon. It could also be a cast copy as this surface looks almost the same and can only be differentiated by close-up looks into the NAKAGO-ANA or other openings. The last photos in Christian's post are not very convincing!

 

It is not that easy and almost never safe!

[christianmalterre]

Definitely and very certainly NOT CAST Jean!

(glasses!)

 

This Tsuba once in the 70´s already had papers... (they got lost in translation?)

It finally found itself finally back in hands,-in an "form"/ "habit of an maybe (?)to ben called "nice restauration"(done by an totally ignorant person these days) -of an close Tsuba collectors friend...

This is an Yagyu Tsuba!

and It´s authentic!

No reason at all so to complain about it-(it´s authentic!)

 

[Pete Klein]

This book has a very good article/pictures on Yagyu tsuba: http://www.japaneseswordbooksandtsuba.c ... agyu-tsuba

[christianmalterre]

allow me to add:

 

and it´s already much better than "Tsuba an aesthetic Study"(relating to Yagyu group here)

Thanks Pete!

(David will be happy hopefully?).....

 

Christian

[Jean]

Yagyu or not, I prefer kyo sukashi or higo . The iron of this tsuba seems rough even, porous.... That's a question of "aesthetic".

[Pete Klein]

this book also has a very good article on Yagyu: http://www.japaneseswordbooksandtsuba.c ... ean-branch

 

There is some overlap between the two I mentioned.

[ROKUJURO]

Definitely and very certainly NOT CAST Jean!

 

This Tsuba once in the 70´s already had papers... (they got lost in translation)

It finally found itself ....back in hands in a form....of a maybe to be called "nice restauration".....This is a Yagyu Tsuba! and it´s authentic! No reason at all....to complain about it.....

Christian,

 

I don't complain and, yes, it is probably genuine when you say so. What I was referring to was David's expectation that we might be able to confirm it's authenticity only by photos.

 

I like YAGYU TSUBA in general, but this one would not be my favourite. There are some points of doubt, at least in my eyes (glasses on!), and I have marked some of them in the attached photo. Maybe it's just the picture which proves that the task of authentification can be difficult that way!

 

[Soshin]

Hi Christian M.,

 

Thanks for the additional photos of my tsuba. Funny to learn that this tsuba once had papers. I first viewed this tsuba at the Tampa Show this year and fell in love with it. This love was reinforced for me when I saw Jack F. exhibit of Yagyu tsuba from all three production periods at the Baltimore show in September. I do disagree with one point and that is my overuse of "Tsuba an aesthetic Study" I didn't even use it as a reference in my kantei write up.

 

Hi Jean C.,

 

The above statement was intended as a light hearted joke. Humor is a hard thing to communicated across cultures and I sorry I didn't intend any disrespect.

It is not that easy and almost never safe!

The question of it being cast is pointless. It was recently lacquered and the lacquer is still in the process of being removed by the former and by me the current owner. If anyone is taking advice from this website or any other website on the internet about antique Japanese swords and not independently thinking about the facts and do their own book and in person research they are setting himself up for big trouble. This is not an attach on NMB but just a general statement about the internet.

 

Hi Pete,

 

I have a copy of the book you linked to. It is a fine reference on Yagyu tsuba.

[ROKUJURO]

......It was recently lacquered and the lacquer is still in the process of being removed by the former and by me, the current owner......

David,

 

let me emphasize that my questions/doubts are based on the pictures shown.

 

It would be nice to see the TSUBA here again when the restoration to the old glory is finished.

[Soshin]

Yagyu or not, I prefer kyo sukashi or higo . The iron of this tsuba seems rough even, porous.... That's a question of "aesthetic".

Hi Jean,

 

Japan has many different aesthetics favoured by different samurai groups during it pre modern historical periods. The aesthetics of a Yagyu, Kanayama, or Ono tsuba are very different then Kyo-Sukashi or Higo iron tsuba but all of these very different aesthetics are equally valid in my opinion. This was one of the first impressions looking at Sansao first book on Sukashi tsuba.

 

Jean C.,

 

There is also signs on the omote side of the tsuba being hit hard by a sword two or three times. Any cast iron tsuba being hit with a sword would have broke into pieces. Here is link to what I am talking about: http://www.ksky.ne.jp/~sumie99/tsubacastiron.html. The person in the article was able to break a cast iron tsuba with a plastic hammer. It may take me 16 to 18 months to get this tsuba ready for submission to NBTHK shinsa. I will post again when I am finished removing the lacquer and I have slowly naturally repatinate the surface.

[raven2]

Hi Dave,

 

You are right, Japan has many different aesthetics and all are equally valid. Everyone also has their own aesthetics and although I recognize Yagyu, most of what I have seen are not particularly pleasing to me. I seem to have the same tastes as Jean with Kyo-Sukashi and Higo (although I also like Choshu and the simplicilty of Owari.) To each his own.