Poor old tsuba... minor restoration work

[chris covington]

Hello all,

 

I hope i can figure out the images here...

 

About 20 years ago I got an old tsuba from a local antiques dealer who specialized in Japanese items. Most of his stuff was prints, china, lacquer and furniture. He would dig up the occasional tsuba now and then. This one he sold to me cheap because someone had spray painted it with gold paint. He tended to like kinko stuff anyway.

 

Just a few weeks ago I dug this old tsuba out of my remaining stuff and decided to get rid of the nasty gold paint. A long dip in acetone and some scrubbing with a soft toothbrush and the paint was gone. I used a piece of bamboo to clean the red rust, dirt and grime off. I have been keeping it wrapped in some soft cotton cloth in my pocket. When I'm not keeping it in my pocket I am handling it or I am keeping it in the bathroom on a shelf. I've avoided any chemicals post-acetone and I'm just trying to get some patina on it. The iron is starting to get that dark almost wet look to it. There is almost zero patina on the brass sadly and it is very shiney.

 

Now, years ago I heard that if you keep soft metal in the bathroom the gases from the toilet and the dampness from showering will patina soft metal. I had a shakudo tiger menuki that some well meaning person thought was supposed to be polished bright. It looked like copper when I got it. I used the same treatment I am giving this tsuba and it took a nice dark color and you could even see the golden stripes on the tiger again. Worked out great. The brass on this tsuba doesn't want to help me out. Does anyone have any suggestions on how to get a nice golden brown patina on this tsuba?

 

Another kicker for me is I used to manage a small mall food court restaurant during my undergrad days. It had a lot of brass at the front of the restaurant that I would have to polish once a month because after 3 weeks it would start to turn brown. Why won't my tsuba help me out like the restaurant?

 

Another question; a few different collectors that I respect have given me different thoughts about what school this tsuba should be classified as. One group says Onin because it looks rather old and has an Onin feel to it (I guess the rope around the sukashi?). Another group has said Heianjo because it lacks the dots. Given the condition I'm not sure if it would paper at shinsa so it might not be worth the time and effort to send it in. I am open to any thoughts on school/style or if it would be worth sending in to shinsa.

 

 

Best regards,

Chris

[Soshin]

Hi Chris,

 

Welcome to NMB. Can you post measurements of the tsuba in cm and the thickness at the rim in mm? It would be helpful for identification. To me it looks like a Heianjo shinchu-zogan tsuba from Kyoto in Yamashiro Province but the overall size and thickness of the plate would be very helpful in determining its age. Thank you.

[chris covington]

Hi David,

 

Thanks for the warm welcome!

 

The measurements:

7.4cm X 7.5cm X 4mm

 

Best regards,

Chris

[Soshin]

Hi Chris,

 

Based upon the thickness of 4 mm I am standing by my Heianjo shinchu-zogan school attribution for this tsuba. The whole leaf design is also something I do not see in Onin tsuba. Generally the inlays are abstract and composed of lines or dots patterns. Here is a real classsic Onin tsuba in the "for sale" section: http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=17004. I think it dates circa to the early part of the Edo Period (~1615-1670). Onin tsuba of the Muromachi and Momoyama Periods are generally very thin less than 3 mm in thickness. The tsuba plate of Onin tsuba are very similar to Ko-Tosho or Ko-Katchushi tsuba and are sometimes covered in black lacquer.

 

P.S. I do wish it was kept in better condition before it made it into your collection.

[chris covington]

Thanks David,

 

I think I am leaning more towards Heianjo as well.

 

I agree; I wish it were kept in better condition before I got it. I'm not sure if the spray paint helped keep it in better condition or made it worse? I just hope that the brass starts to take on some patina. I'd love it if it turned nice and brown like the Onin tsuba you posted.

 

Cheers!

Chris

[Soshin]

Hi Chris,

 

The gold spray paint was a bad thing. In regards to the brass inlays just give it two or three hundred years and it should look fine. :lol:

[Henry Wilson]

Nice job. You could try putting plasticine on the brass and leaving it for a few days and see what happens. It might dull the brass a bit and take away glare. I have heard that this works with most non fercous metals if you want to dull them down.

[chris covington]

Mr. Wilson,

 

Thank you for the reply. I might try the plasticine trick out. I'll keep everyone posted if I do.

 

It does have quite a bit of shine on it. Even to take that glare off of it would be nice. I guess my hands aren't oily and salty enough? More french fries and pork rinds for me...

 

Cheers!

Chris

[robobot]

What you could try is putting it in a bag of mashed up eggs,

I heard that can recreate the dullness on old silver coins that have been polished....

Don't know about brass though or if it would damage the rest of the tsuba.

Best google what reaction is taking place before attempting it.

[Alex A]

I read about this as a method for patinating copper. As brass is made partly from copper, I presume it may be affected, but wouldn't expect too much of a result. Theres a lot on the internet on this, but in reality, it doesnt work too well.

Looks fine as it is, I would just leave it.

Alex.

[kusunokimasahige]

It is looking great.

 

Why dull it down ? Let nature do it (oxygen).

 

Putting it in a bag of mashed up egs only is useful when you like salmonella poisoning.

[drbvac]

It must be the sulphur in the eggs that oxidizes the metals into various sulphides that are often darker in colour - would probably be pretty unpredictable.

[chris covington]

Thanks for all of the replies everyone!

 

I have a feeling it is the sulphur in the eggs that would turn it. I think, at least in part, that is why it worked to keep the shakudo in the bathroom. The various gases coming from the toilet might affect it in the same way as the eggs. On another forum someone suggested that I might just want to leave it alone once i get the iron where I like it. Maybe that'll be my best bet?

 

So on to my second inquiry: what do you guys think is the chance of this thing getting papered? It is old I'm pretty sure of that. I am concerned about the condition it is in. I'm not sure it is in good enough condition to warrant submitting it to shinsa. Thoughts?

 

Cheers,

Chris

[Alex A]

Theres no shortcut to an aged looking patina unless you really know what your doing. Theres plenty of home DIYs on the internet, includes, salty water, lemon juice, eggs (as mentioned), liver of sulphur (toxic/hazerdous), even urine??. I tried all of these (apart from urine ) to see if i could patinate new copper seppa. I used new shiny copper coins in the experiment. The results where, salty water= patchy discolour lemon juice= nothing eggs= patchy discolour urine=take a wild guess

Liver of sulphur= the only one that really did anything, but looked false compared to genuine aged copper coins. As pointed out, it is also an unstable patina. I did actually leave one in the garden on the window sill, its turned black, so i suppose it has natural patina, but not the patina i was looking for. I thought i would note all this down, incase someone else in the future is an "hands on" kind of guy, LOL.

 

Alex.

[Alex A]

Chris, you already have an attribution , why spend any money on papers.

 

Alex.

[chris covington]

Hello Alex et al.,

 

I think you might be right about no short cuts. I am just going to have to wait a few hundred years to get it back where it should be :lol:

 

As for papers... I dunno, just sort of makes it feel official. Besides lots of folks here show off nice fittings and swords with cool looking papers I want to fit in

[Alex A]

Chris, no papers=money in pocket ...... money in pocket=buy books for knowledge

Knowledge=no need for papers......... now that's cool

Alex.

[Soshin]

  Alex A said:

Chris, no papers=money in pocket ...... money in pocket=buy books for knowledge

Knowledge=no need for papers......... now that's cool

Alex.

 

Hi Chris,

 

I feel it would be waste of money for papers for this tsuba even if it passes which it may not as not so minor restoration (in my book) was done to it. The unnatural brightness of the brass inlay work might also be a big sticking point of the shinsa panel. Google images of "Heianjo Tsuba" and you will see what I mean. Alex's quote while I respect his honest opinion is in my book a bit over simplistic and generalizes too much. Again I want to state this is just my opinion take it or leave it. I do agree with Alex in that sending money on books and I would like to add visiting shows and other collectors that you might know would be a better way to spend your time and money right now.

[Alex A]

David, obviously a generalization :D

 

Alex.

[remzy]

Terrific job on the tsuba, I thought it might have been a goner after seeing the first picture but you were gentle with it (even if using chemical, concidering the circumstances) and it shows!

 

As for the brass, i dont know, liver of sulfur perhaps? its a bit drastic and will make silver black, but i dont know about brass, might be worth a try, since the patina on it is already gone.

[chris covington]

Sage advice everyone. I'll see how the brass looks after a few years. I also agree with buying books. I can always use more books for my library Tsuba were never my big thing but I find them more and more interesting and appealing now. In many cases they are a little bit more affordable than swords, too.

[Soshin]

Hi Chris,

 

Be careful "how far you go down the rabbit hole" with collecting tosogu. After 10 years the tsuba I am intrested in now are 2.5X more expensive then any early Nihonto I purchased or wanted to purchase.

[Tiaan Burger]

A pain in my workshop might just help with the patina problem. I work on our porch, on the side of a hill, the city spread out below. An afternoon's carving would be dull the next morning, copper and brass turn brown, shibuichi turns grey. Even wrought iron turns dark. At first I thought it was air pollution. Eventually I realised that the rubber mats on my workbench tops is the cause. I found that out after leaving a polished copper disk on the rubber. The bottom was dark brown, with the pattern of the rubber showing.

It is getting better now, the sulphur in the rubber has mostly evaporated. Get some rubber matting from a hardware store, new rubber ,that still has that distinctive "new tyre" smell. Put the tsuba in a lidded bowl with some strips of new rubber, without the rubber touching the tsuba.

 

You might want to try it with a scrap piece of brass first.

 

Tiaan

[John A Stuart]

Hmmm, must be Vulcanised rubber. John