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The Chinese are faking showa-to now

brannow
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Geraint Grand Master

Geraint

Posted
Posted

One turned up in a local auction in full koshirae and it was very good. The finish on the fittings still slightly off but very close and the blade looked at first glance like a poorly repolished showato. The hada was much finer than usual copies and the whole thing would easily fool a new collector. In hand it was relatively straight forward to spot but using on line images would be tough. few years from now when they have acquired a little age........

Brian

Brian

Posted
Posted

Hmm..

The lines are very good, as is the kissaki. Nakago jiri still terrible and no yasurime. In mounts, this would be hard to detect.

Can someone translate the date?

 

Brian

Gabriel L Experienced

Gabriel L

Posted
Posted

Sometimes I worry that the availability of information online has backfired. This example is still obvious to an experienced collector or student, but it could fool a whole lot of new people.

 

Ultimately I am comforted that to make a truly good sword, there is no shortcut. So as long as we only buy good swords, we have nothing to fear. But I do worry that in the future, the low end of the market will be completely conflated with convincing fakes. Which would essentially devalue whatever worth real Showato might otherwise possess (eg as militaria).

Lee Bray Mentor

Lee Bray

Posted
Posted

If you check the sellers other items, you'll see he's selling a copy of Fuller & Gregory's Military swords.

Maybe that's where the improvements have come from and now they don't need the book...

 

Considering that some forges in China have been making decent production katana for some years, I'm surprised it has taken this long to see fakes of this 'quality'.

It does seem that there are still plenty of people who will pay out good money for blatantly obvious fakes so maybe they haven't needed to yet.

obiwanknabbe Proficient

obiwanknabbe

Posted
Posted

I don't think you would have to worry about the fakes affecting the market too much, Gabriel. Look at the prices of CSA swords and the like. Yes, there are many fakes made to fool unwary collectors, but the real ones now garner a small fortune. Ultimately I think the future of the Militaria prices will be both market driven and inexorably tied to increasing age and rarity. That, and lets face it, Japanese swords are WAY cooler than most :D . Every time a new Samurai movie comes out, a new collector is born.

 

As for a means to navigate the fakes, who knows? We may see some form of authentication papers being developed for such swords, much like NGC or PCGS for currency (million dollar idea anyone). That would only help maintain the value and integrity of real pieces. I recall EBAY instituting a rule that all coins sold with a grade attached to the listing had to be certified by one of the recognized grading companies. The same may become true for true antique blades.

 

Wishful thinking? Perhaps, but it has happened in other arenas of collecting.

 

For now, all I can recommend to new collectors is a lesson I have learned from all of you wonderful folk: ASK QUESTIONS BEFORE you fork over money.

 

Kurt.K

w.y.chan Proficient

w.y.chan

Posted
Posted
As for a means to navigate the fakes, who knows? We may see some form of authentication papers being developed for such swords, much like NGC or PCGS for currency (million dollar idea anyone)

 

Do you mean slabbing swords :lol:

w.y.chan Proficient

w.y.chan

Posted
Posted

Somehow I doubt the Chinese discover how to make fake Japanese swords from literature in English, western sources or indeed from this forum.

I've seen replica nihonto when I was in Hong Kong back in 1997 and I'm sure they were selling them long before that.

Alex A Grand Master

Alex A

Posted
Posted

Not "discover", just "perfect".

They will also be looking for info on how to go about perfecting their sell, not just the swords.

If I can spot ways they can improve their game, im sure they can.

 

Alex.

Brian

Brian

Posted
Posted

Sorry...not buying it. They have real Nihonto in China. They can copy those. Or travel a little and go to Japan. Or there are a ton of books with the best photos possible. The LAST thing they would do is browse forums to see what their reviews are.

They know what real ones look like. They can make them if they like. But that raises the price. So they make them cheaply in most cases, and without all the refinements. When they make them better..they go for more money.

Btw..probably some truth in the rumour that there are Japanese tosho in China making swords.

Trust me...they don't need us to tell them how to improve the fakes.

 

Brian

w.y.chan Proficient

w.y.chan

Posted
Posted

Agree with Brian. The swords shown on this thread are deliberately made not to deceive genuine collectors. They are low quality replicas not fakes. The best Chinese bladesmiths can make very good Japanese style swords of quality that at least rivals the best comming out of USA and I'm sure some are already trained under at least one Japanese tosho who works in China.

Alex A Grand Master

Alex A

Posted
Posted

If they can already make good copies, then why not make good copies?. Why even sell from China?.

I suppose the simple answer is, because they sell as they are, just takes the right person to come along....

 

Alex.

w.y.chan Proficient

w.y.chan

Posted
Posted

Good copies are made and sold to collectors just don't find its way to ebay, but if they are that good you wouldnt know.

About 8yrs ago there was a newly made Japanese style swords on ebay from China, it looked every bit as good as a Japanese one, it wasnt a faked mei but one not attributed to any Japanese smith, it was skillfully cut, it sold for quite a sum of money.

Lee Bray Mentor

Lee Bray

Posted
Posted
If they can already make good copies, then why not make good copies?. Why even sell from China?.

I suppose the simple answer is, because they sell as they are, just takes the right person to come along....

 

Alex.

 

They used to say there was a sucker born every minute.

With the exponential growth rise in population, it's probably closer to every second, nowadays...

Adrian Mentor

Adrian

Posted
Posted

They know what real ones look like. They can make them if they like. But that raises the price. So they make them cheaply in most cases, and without all the refinements. When they make them better..they go for more money.

 

This pretty much nails it. If they were to make a perfect replica the cost to make it (working hours of a skilled smith plus materials plus working hours of a skilled polisher and so on) would be way too high.

Lee Bray Mentor

Lee Bray

Posted
Posted

This pretty much nails it. If they were to make a perfect replica the cost to make it (working hours of a skilled smith plus materials plus working hours of a skilled polisher and so on) would be way too high.

 

There are fully mounted and properly(? - at least they display hamon) heat treated katana coming out of the forges in China which retail for way under US$200. That's retail prices in the US, so with shipping from China and profit margins, the Chinese forges are selling them for less than $100.

 

This copy of a Shingunto - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2zgYN35Id4 - retails for US$350.

It's not perfect, no, but a lot better than the vast majority of obvious fakes we see. Actual cost would be what, $150-$200?

 

So, I think you're right in that the manufacturing costs would be higher but I don't think by very much.

I think we've just been lucky so far in that the sword market is small and generally well educated and the Chinese haven't taken full advantage of it. With handbags, watches, DVD's, etc, there is so much more money to be made for a lot less hassle.

 

Hopefully, with increased wealth across China and their promised political reforms, we might see a decrease in all forms of Chinese fakes but then we might also see flying pigs...

Dr Fox Mentor

Dr Fox

Posted
Posted

I don't believe that this is some thing that is new, and ‘happening now’. It is said it would be counter productive due to costs, to fake to the highest standards of the real thing, if true then these efforts will always be spotted by those who know their game.

 

Now this forum has very real advice on first sword purchase, any sword! Good advice but 90% ignored, so where is the market? It’s with the uninitiated who believe they have found a bargain, they will have paid above the production costs so job done for the seller.

 

Running alongside the above is the Replica market; the number of replica collectors out there is huge, Take a look at the sales patter for the Munetoshi already mentioned, when you are geared up to produce this item, your not far away from a decent fake or two.

 

Fake/replica the only difference is in the sale patter, people will buy what they hear, not what they see.

 

My time to worry is when the fakes get good enough to pass Shinsa and get papered, but hang on! If it has already happened then our game is over anyway.

 

Denis.

Adrian Mentor

Adrian

Posted
Posted

 

There are fully mounted and properly(? - at least they display hamon) heat treated katana coming out of the forges in China which retail for way under US$200. That's retail prices in the US, so with shipping from China and profit margins, the Chinese forges are selling them for less than $100.

 

This copy of a Shingunto - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2zgYN35Id4 - retails for US$350.

It's not perfect, no, but a lot better than the vast majority of obvious fakes we see. Actual cost would be what, $150-$200?

 

You're correct about this kind of fakes, but I wasn't talking about flea market grade copies. These will always be easy to spot not only by experienced nihonto collectors but also by people who have good general knowledge in antiquities and have minimal nihonto knowledge.

This thread is quite old. Please consider starting a new thread rather than reviving this one, unless your post is really relevant and adds to the topic..

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