Okashi-to "Rebellion" swords.

[Dave R]

 Well, here we are again... and still worrying away at this topic. Yesterday I picked up two tsuka, both described as "Satsuma" and both very similar but with what I believe are crucial differences from each other and from the norm of "rebellion" swords. 

 Both are bound in that same ito we see all the time but one has the standard Hineri Maki, and the other in that varient of Katata Maki we know and love . I believe that the Hineri Maki example is not a Rebellion" hilt, having decent menuki and Hineri Maki. I believe the second  is from a "Rebellion" sword on the basis of Katata Maki, and having menuki that are in fact the rovings from the back of tobacco pouch menuki.

 What I would like to know is what is being used for Ito on both of these, and why, as it is nothing like what is seen on most Tsuka.

I will content myself now with posting photo's and letting people mull over them .

 

[Brian]

I have always thought it was just a cheap ito used to save money. Since it is fairly commonly seen on these, I have always thought it to be just an expedient wrapping material with less desirability than the usual silk.

 

Brian

[Dave R]

Expedient and cheap certainly, but it is fairly standard on all of these swords, so a lot of it was made. My questions are, is it hemp or cotton, what was its original colour and was it purpose made as Ito or was it originally made for some other use.

 Looking at a few examples it looks to be cotton, having a shorter "staple" and a softer feel than linen or hemp, and although it is now universally brown protected areas show as green or blue.

 If it is a purpose made Ito it is unusually thin and plain.  It is always folded over double when used as Ito, but is a tape or braid with selvages rather than cut cloth strip as has been suggested. It is also woven in a twill pattern on many/all the samples I have seen. One idea I have had is that it might have been an edging tape like sashahiri, but it is not quite right for that. 

 Ideas anyone?

[dominnimod]

Here in Spain,there are also quite a lot of these swords.Dumping pics just in case someone cares anymore

Pd:One of them had a 17 century signed blade

[Dave R]

Well I am certainly still interested. I would say that the first sword is certainly a "Satsuma/Okashi-to" due to the Ito going over the Kashira. The other I am not so sure of. My whole aim with the thread was to garner examples and work towards a consensus as to what defined this type as opposed to other swords with this variant of katatamaki, and get some idea as to what they really were. .....

 Edit, yes the second is definitely one as well, I missed the washer style menuki at first look.

[Dave R]

 Apologies to any recent followers of this thread for the disappearance of photo's that I posted. I am not sure what happened to them, but I suspect I hot-linked rather than uploading, I shall have to see if I can rectify it somehow.

[Brian]

In post #16, these were the links:

https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/1383726_743373475688648_160112496_n.jpg
https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc3/1377144_743373522355310_1392783595_n.jpg
https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn2/1396017_743373592355303_808756252_n.jpg

If you pm me the images, I can re-attach them.

Brian

[manfrommagnum]

One thing to keep in mind is that the Satsuma region was part of the Shimazu clan holdings. Once the Tokagowa took power, most Shimazu lost their fiefs and became farmers, Ronin, and sailors. Nagasaki was one of the ports that Made the Shimazu rich.

[Guido]

One thing to keep in mind is that the Satsuma region was part of the Shimazu clan holdings. Once the Tokagowa took power, most Shimazu lost their fiefs and became farmers, Ronin, and sailors. Nagasaki was one of the ports that Made the Shimazu rich.

 

The Shimazu-han was the most powerful of all tozama daimyō, and had a higher samurai to commoner ratio than average domains. Nagasaki was under the direct control of the Tokugawa bakufu, and governed by the Nagasaki-bugyō - the Shimazu clan became rich due to conquering Okinawa and the Ryūkyū kingdom.

[Dave R]

In post #16, these were the links:

 

https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/1383726_743373475688648_160112496_n.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc3/1377144_743373522355310_1392783595_n.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn2/1396017_743373592355303_808756252_n.jpg

 

If you pm me the images, I can re-attach them.

 

Brian

Thanks for this. I will have a dig through and see if I can find the original pictures.

[Basilgon]

Hello, came across this thread by chance, and wondering if the funny round menuki.

Please let me know if you're still willing to part with it. I'd like to see the other side of it as well. I re-attached an image of it for memory sake. Can email me at basilmaurer@gmail.com if interested in sharing.

Thanks so much🙏