Okashi-to "Rebellion" swords.

[christianmalterre]

Dear Ian,Dave,

 

it´s somehow funny so far to see these both pictures you both did post(reattached)

I always did wonder about this strange "Menuki" i teared me from an old Tsuka i once found in an antiques shop....(see mine picture attached)

Always did wonder about what finally this little thing shall be....an coin? or rather to ben seen with this interesting post Markus did write some time ago on his blog? http://markussesko.wordpress.com/2013/0 ... ity-tsuba/

 

Really don´t know....

What but is real and certain is that i did tear me it out under an old Tsuka lacing....

Ever seen such?

(for those interested in-i will of course part from it if there´s somebody collecting such)

Funny-Not?

Do we have to see parallels here to these mentioned times?....???

 

Christian

[chris covington]

Hello all,

 

I've been reading this thread since the beginning and thought I'd throw my two cents in. I tend to believe that things are not made up entirely out of the blue. I have a feeling that there is at least some truth to the name Satsuma Rebellion sword. This is pure speculation on my part so take it for what it is worth. Mr. Bottomley's idea about the real origin of these swords makes a lot more sense to me than any other story I've heard. I think Mr. Sinclaire makes a very good point about Satsuma farmer/samurai. I don't have a source but I seem to recall that in most han samurai made up only a very small percentage of the population usually no more than 2-3%. Satsuma allowed their goshi to keep their rank (if only nominal) and thus the Satsuma han had nearly 25% samurai in their population. How many of them were sword carrying bushi in the classical sense? Probably not that many which would require a large stock pile of weapons in castles and other arsenals throughout the han in case of invasion. I have a feeling many of these goshi were not much more than conscript level soldiers with a chip on their shoulder. Maybe they trained in some level of Jigen-ryu, maybe not? At any rate I feel like we see more of these rebellion swords in the UK than in other counties. I've only seen a few at shows (I have always wanted to pick one up but when I have the money I never see them, when I see them I am always strapped for cash... such is my lot) here in the US. I know the Satsuma opened relations with the British just after the Richardson Affair. Maybe many of these swords were originally Satsuma swords and they were dumped off on the British in trade? Being from Satsuma it is an easy connection to make to the Satsuma Rebellion hence the name (maybe in part by some clever marketing strategy)? If you were a 19th century Briton reading about a samurai rebellion in Satsuma wouldn't it be interesting to own a sword from one of their warriors? Hey a boat load of swords from Satsuma just came in...

 

Just a thought. Thanks for a great thread though!

 

Best regards,

Chris

[kusunokimasahige]

To be honest Chris, the chances of boat loads of Satsuma-han swords being transported to the UK is a bit over the top if you ask me. Post-Meiji restoration, perhaps, but most certainly not during the period 1855-1876.

 

Even though the British had a presence in Yokohama with the large XXth Regiment camp on "The Bluff" (and other regiments of which units served in Japan), as well as their Naval presence during and after the Shimonoseki incident and the contacts between the Choshu Daimyo with Admiral King, this still is no proof that there would have been swords traded en masse. It is however a fact that Western powers helped in subdueing the power of the Choshu, but not that of Satsuma.

 

I think the chances that these swords came to the UK in abundant numbers during the turbulent period from 1855 onwards are rather slim.

 

KM

 

See also :

 

http://users.ju.edu/jclarke/wizzt.html

[chris covington]

Ok, so boat loads is a little over the top but it might explain why we see them more in the UK than other parts of the world. And you are probably right about Meiji era instead of Bakamatsu but the same theory would apply. Good marketing for "Swords from the failed Satsuma Rebellion!" It wouldn't be a total lie, they may very well have been from the Satsuma han... just maybe not used by the rebellion (or used by some of the goshi farmers who didn't own their own sword).

 

Thanks for entertaining my ideas though

[christianmalterre]

answering to H.J.-

who but would buy such swords then?

(China?).....

 

i do see quite relevant info and good thought here mentioned by Chris....

 

The Japanese had to "collect money"....

And they did find it in England....

England had to (re)finance it´s currency these days-as they were more than just bancrupt!

 

No bad idea at all!

 

Christian

[kusunokimasahige]

Christian, trade with China in Japanese products was not at all important for the Western powers who wanted to open up trade with Japan by force.

 

There was however small trade between Japan and China through some smaller Kyushu based operations, though the bakufu did not really tolerate it.

 

Furthermore the Japanese did not need money. You make it out as if the Japanese were poor and could not get by without British help. Nothing is further from the truth. I would kindly advise you to read up on late Edo period/bakumatsu/Meiji history to try and understand the full stretch/implications of not only international relations between Japan and the foreign Legates but also into trade, which untill the Meiji government became properly settled remained "Peanuts".

 

It is a pity I do not have the time at present to translate the full Journal of Dirk De Graaff van Polsbroek and some others which were actually present and involved in these turbulent times in Japan. Might do that some day. It sheds a clear light on the Western views about this period in their and Japan's history.

 

KM

[christianmalterre]

Dear H.J.

 

please be so kind to send me these if possible-very keen in reading what you mention here...

You still do have mine mail adress?(if not,re-contact via PM so far...)

No worry-am not pressed...

Cheers!

 

Me

[kusunokimasahige]

I have been looking around for you all and found some books in English which shed some light on the period :

 

(A Pioneer in Yokohama: A Dutchman's Adventures in the New Treaty Port by C. T. Assendelft de Coningh)

2012.

http://books.google.nl/books?id=o6915tX ... ma&f=false

 

（Mario Emilio Cosenza,The Complete Journal of Townsend Harris,1930)

 

（Henry Heusken,Japan Journal 1855-1861,translated and edited by Jeannette C.van der Corput and Robert A.Wilson,Copyright C 1964 by Rutgers, the State University) [Henry Heusken was killed by a group of Ronin supportive of the Sonno-Joi groups].

 

（Sir Rutherford Alcock,The Capital of the Tycoon : a Narrative of a Three Years' Residence in Japan,2 vols.,New York,1863）

 

An article on Japanese Immigration which also writes about some of the troubles in Japan, especially those of the Aizu-Han :

 

http://www.i-repository.net/contents/as ... 002646.pdf

 

And a quite interesting set of pages (if you read Japanese) [Though a bit political so lose the fallujah parts]

 

http://web.kyoto-inet.or.jp/people/tiak ... bush0.html

 

That is a start.

 

 

KM

[christianmalterre]

Thanks H.J.

 

will browse me through....please do allow me some time to follow yours thoughts,though...

 

i just do ask me why the "siver currency" was that down these days....?

 

Christian

[kusunokimasahige]

In the beginning of trade during the Dutch Hirado and afterwards Deshima era, goods were paid for in bar copper which was sought after especially because the Japanese did not devise a good manner to remove gold from it. So the bars were refined in China and the Indonesian Archipelango to win gold out of them. At times, silver was donated in small ingots but not very often. Most was trade through bartering. You had the Commies-Trade (official VOC trade) and the Kanban (Cambang) trade, which was more on personal title with a form of auction. With four ships in the beginning and one or two each year and sometimes none for years during the 1795-1815 period the trade was not a Bulk trade of massive proportions.

 

The coinage of the Samurai era is a minefield for those not studied in the field, same goes of course for Nihonto.

 

Silver coins....

It all depends what coins you are speaking of in general. Koban (Gold sometimes with silver content) ? Ryo (Gold sometimes with silver content) ? Bu (Gold and Silver) ? (how many bu?) Mon (copper/bronze) ? How many Mon ? What era, material, which maker/mint?

 

Mind you, refining precious metals was not a very well mastered art so 24 Kt Gold is the exception here.

 

Han often had their own coinage stamped before the Bakufu tried to centralize things. Also about Japanese money and coinage there is a lot to read.

 

http://wiki.samurai-archives.com/index. ... e=Currency

 

I am still rather miffed because I lost out on this one at Ebay last week :

[christianmalterre]

Dear H.J.

 

with due respect please-

This given threat by Dave(and it´s indeed very good!),shall not ben interrupted further due contradictory scenarios.

Please do allow me to follow your´s thoughts.

 

we had enough other threats blocked or even canceled in past....

So far you do not agree with me-you are welcome to get in touch via personally correspondence.

 

Let this threat run further-many collectors-many thoughts so far....

 

(you´ll receive an answer by me so far i had time to study the info you kindly gave me)

 

Christian

[kusunokimasahige]

Christian :

 

This topic is not derailed but evolving.

 

Begin : Samurai rebellion or loan swords.

 

Middle : What swords, why so many around, why so many in Western countries and why the specific Western name giving of Satsuma rebellion swords.

 

Present: Several theories, part based on mistakes due to inadequate comprehension of the history of the late Edo era.

 

The topic could as well have gone in the specific direction of arsenal swords for ashigaru.

 

I see no difference nor derailment, hijacking or what have you.

 

You could even discuss the Mon coin used as a Menuki on the tsuka of one of the swords posted in the photos.

 

All the same subject, just an interesting elaboration of the discussion, for all of us.

 

KM

[John A Stuart]

Please PM me the details of that koban. It looks similar to a 佐渡小判 Sato Koban, but, the marks are strange and it is not in my books. John

[Dave R]

Writing as he who started this thread I can say that it has gone off topic, and although I am entertained in the points coming up here, and am following them with interest..... can we have some discussion and photo's relevant to my original question.... variations seen in the koshirae of those swords variously known as Okashi-to and Rebellion swords.

Thankyou.

[John A Stuart]

Here are some pictures of a koshirae I have that I had considered as one of the type. No washer type menuki, in fact nice ones that show the Tokugawa crest. A simple tsuba and plain Jane fuchigashira. Katatemaki, called popularly 'battle wrap'. The Kojiri is long and plain iron. It has beninuri which aligns to a particular school of kendo. John

[Dave R]

Thanks for this... a nice piece and much neater than most of the type. Looks to be a Toppai variant, but the red laquer really looks to be a giveaway as to which Han it is from. Anyone else got thought on this one? Any idea of a date for this one?

[Clive Sinclaire]

Gentlemen,

Earlier this year. at a UK Birmingham Arms Fair, I bought a wakizashi in "Satsuma Rebellion" koshirae of no great interest but the blade was signed with a Tadayoshi go-ji mei. I believe it is a rare Tosa (no) Kami Tadayoshi but this is only my personal opinion. It should be back from the polisher later this week. As it was only a couple of humdred pounds sterling, I considered the koshira as incidental but, if I am correct in my appraisal, it will be the first blade by this smith that I have acquired. It is always worth checking out the blade in these otherwise usually low quality koshirae. Anyhow, it was a great New Year present to myself!

Regards

Clive Sinclaire

[Toryu2020]

All -

The problem with these being "arsenal" pieces for me is the newness of them. When they do show age, I can easily believe they are 100 years old but not 300. I find it hard to imagine a han of any size with the resources to maintain a large stash of swords but too cheap to get decent same, tsukaito and tsuka for their swords.

 

Rather I think Chris C is on to something - indeed after the restoration we hear tales of cart loads of swords being sold to foreigners on the docks of Yokohama. Were I an enterprising sword dealer with boxes of rusty, bent and badly suriage'd swords, sitting next to boxes of old tsuba and saya, I might be tempted to slap all the pieces together to resemble swords and sell them off as "rebellion" swords. The question remains, why have these types not been cataloged in any Japanese reference? Has any of the many distinguished members here ever seen one of these in Japan?

 

I think this is a perfect area of study for the western student - I think in Europe and America we can see more of the type and if we can post and catalog the images here we might get at the OP's question of what are the variations, similarities and differences. What besides the seeming slapdash nature of these suggests Kyushu, Satsuma or the Seinan Senso?

-t

[John A Stuart]

I think what is refered to is swords that are fitted to koshirae, of just about 140 years old now, made for field use by lower level samurai (ashigaru) and farmer/warrior (chugen). Of course the Satsuma Rebellion in 1877 was a time within which these definitions were becoming blurred. Landless farmers were picking up swords to try and better themselves. This meant there was a medley of weapons gathered in these armies. Some loan swords of the han, some refitted family swords and battleground pick-ups, supplementing those normally carried by han retainers and their men. Most of these part timers couldn't afford posh rigs and there was some variety in just what was required and demand may have created a shortage locally for groups of youngsters making their way to fame and glory. Along with koshirae of great value being left behind to prevent damage to valuable family treasures, there was, I suspect, swords in decaying mounts owned by families that needed a quick refurbishment for use. When we look at some surviving pics of the period, it seems a more grimy sort of war, dug in, artillery and modern firearms. The blades themselves running the entire gamut. The koshirae I pictured contained a Mino koto, just by chance that is what that warrior had to hand. ?? John

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

Man must keep in mind what was the financial situation of the samurai class at this time.

[Dave R]

Gentlemen,

Earlier this year. at a UK Birmingham Arms Fair, I bought a wakizashi in "Satsuma Rebellion" koshirae of no great interest but the blade was signed with a Tadayoshi go-ji mei. I believe it is a rare Tosa (no) Kami Tadayoshi but this is only my personal opinion. It should be back from the polisher later this week. As it was only a couple of humdred pounds sterling, I considered the koshira as incidental but, if I am correct in my appraisal, it will be the first blade by this smith that I have acquired. It is always worth checking out the blade in these otherwise usually low quality koshirae. Anyhow, it was a great New Year present to myself!

Regards

Clive Sinclaire

Dear Mr Sinclaire would you please post some photo's of the koshirae, I started this thread in order to gather such. The idea originaly being to amass evidence rather than discuss theories.

[Dave R]

To my delight someone else who had read the first post on this thread sent me these photo's of a couple of items from his own collection... interestingly one of these though obviously a cheaply remounted sword has copper kashira and fuchi and a "proper" menuki. A variation from the usual iron mounts and washers.

[Brian]

More proof that they were cobbled together from whatever was available?

 

Brian

[Dave R]

More proof that they were cobbled together from whatever was available?

 

Brian

This is the point I am trying to clarify... to what extent is the mounting of these swords random, or uniform within certain parameters. That is why I am wanting pictures, drawings or even descriptions of this type of Nihonto. Evidence rather than opinions!

[kusunokimasahige]

indeed after the restoration we hear tales of cart loads of swords being sold to foreigners on the docks of Yokohama.

 

I am wondering where you hear these tales. What sources are known and where has it been published ?

 

Even though post-restoration of the Meiji emperor some swords will have been sold to foreigners, I am reluctant to just accept that the Meiji government would have allowed mass export of weapons, samurai or otherwise, without any proof but stories.

 

Since proper documented provenance is now lost for many, if not almost all swords, photos may shed light on the types of fittings and swords (as posted) but more thorough research is needed to create truly new insight.

 

KM

[Toryu2020]

Dave R has the right idea - we need to collect more images, more examples and I think we are well on the way.

 

Masashige san - the term Yokohama-mono comes to mind, flashy cheap objects sold to foreigners. Swords were certainly part of this and we are told that after the haito rei and Seinan no Ran, things Japanese were discarded and things western were adopted wholesale often without real understanding of their use and meaning. I will have to dig a bit to find references to cite, I have heard this so often repeated that I cannot recall where I first encountered it. I have a strong memory of Albert Yamanaka describing cartloads or barrels of swords he saw for sale or that he himself helped schlep. I believe this is in his newsletters. John Yumoto may also have mentioned something like this. Another interesting question to come out of this discussion, I shall have to dig around to see if I can indeed come up with quotes to support my contention.

 

-t

[kusunokimasahige]

Thank you Thomas ! The more info the better for this topic !

 

KM

[Dick Tait]

ebay item: 121193205403

[Dave R]

These next two photo's are of swords that at first glance look to be of the type I am discussing here, one of them is even described on the sale site as a "Satsuma", but in both cases although they have typical Ito and one of them even has iron mounts, they do not fit the profile. The one has nice custom mounts, and the other has decorated iron mounts rather than plain, both have decorative menuki. The final factor to my mind is that in both cases the Ito passes through the Kashira rather than over it.

[Dave R]

BUMP!..... I am still collecting pics for this topic......and other informations relevant!