Collecting Japanese swords vs japanese sword collecting

[Peter Bleed]

Please allow me to initiate a “new” thread” that follows up a couple of other threads that have recently generated discussion in this wonderful community. These threads have explicitly addressed advice to newbies (sic!) and the books needed to understand nipponto. Several of the active participants on the board have explained what they think is necessary to enter and thrive in the pastime of Japanese swords.

Advising new collectors is a good thing for all of us to do. But to do that, I think we should be careful and explicit about what we are laying down as “correct.” It helps me to make a distinction between “collecting Japanese swords” and “Japanese sword collecting.”

Japanese people who collect swords tend to do so in the same basic manner that they do everything else. Japanese like to be in arranged in groups. They especially like those groups to be organized in hierarchies. Furthermore, Japanese prefer clear rules and standards. This is a good way to dress. These are the categories that matter. This is the standard way of doing. . . whatever – flower arrangement, comic book design, sumo, kendo, or squid fishing. Thus, the standard Japanese way of collecting swords involves 1) joining a collecting community, 2) learning the standards of that group, and then 3) fitting in i.e. using that network and mastery of their standards to assemble a ‘collection’. This is “Japanese sword collecting.”

There are other ways of collecting Japanese swords. In the U.S., for example, a classic way of doing that can be described as arbitrage: find’em as war booty and keep’em as art. In fact, I think there are very few “Japanese sword collectors” (as described above) in the JSSUS. There are lots of people on this side of the Pacific who can make excellent qualitative judgments about swords -witness the number of Ju-to from the U.S. But very few Americans take part in the monthly kantei quizzes of Token Bijutsu. Learning the rules and playing that game is not easy for my confrere –( or me!). On the other hand, Western collectors have led the way in organizing information on military and civilian swords of the past century. This has not been a priority - or a concern - for Japanese leaders of sword interest. Certainly there are practical reasons that have contributed to all of these situations, but my point is that there are different ways of collecting Japanese swords.

Telling a new collector to read Noburo Nakahara’s book and then Kokan Nagayama’s may not be bad advice. But a new collector may not immediately understand that these two beautiful books expose different collecting communities. Likewise, it seems foolish to tell a new collector to spend $4000 going to the Token Dai Ichi until he has visited other collectors in his own vicinity. If he is interested in recent political and military affairs, Tokyo may not be the place to start. And in any case, harshly criticizing someone for liking something that offends your sensibilities (or your sensei) seems intolerant.

Peter

[cabowen]

I like to look at it as collecting versus accumulating. A collection requires a plan, a strategy, a purpose. It usually requires study and research and generates understanding and significant knowledge. Accumulating requires nothing more than money and while some accumulators obtain some level of expertise, it is usually shallow at best. We all know many old time "collectors" who ended up with mountains of swords but couldn't read the simplest of mei. I have frequently listed the benefits, as I see them, in specializing in some fashion to provide a focus to one's efforts.

[Pete Klein]

Here is a simple comparison:

 

 

Populations: USA: ~316,668,567 / Japan: ~127,368,088

 

Now, where would it be easier to attend club meetings or find another Nihontophile? LOL!

 

In the USA the San Francisco and Los Angeles areas seem to have the most active clubs. These areas also have larger Japanese/Japanese American populations with a higher number of collectors which enables a greater efficiency to the neophyte in access to availability of research materials, whether it be swords, fittings, armor etc. or books/references materials. There is also a huge advantage in that many members speak/read/write Japanese, therefore facilitating translation of information from Japanese. Increased membership yields larger pools of items to study allowing a more conducive atmosphere to learning yielding greater enthusiasm of the membership. You simply cannot study a sword from a photograph unless you have extensive experience already and even then you would probably be better off studying an oshigata. I have found that many of the 'old timers' here either lived in these areas or had employment which had them in Japan regularly, family of Japanese descent, or had lived in Japan at some point. This is, simply put a Hell of a difficult field logistically. How many of us can afford to be a Compton? And yet many strive on doing their best anyway. From my perspective if all you can do is to travel just to the sword shows here you would benefit greatly.

[Jean]

I agree at 100% with Chris post. I know a lot of serious collectors and that's what they have done.

[Peter Bleed]

My efforts to let a thousand blossoms bloom and open sword collecting appear to be falling on stony ground. I think we should expand collecting and appreciation of Japanese swords. I think, further, that the best way of doing that is to encourage collectors to develop and follow a passion. That passion MAY be set by the established standards of a community in Japan. But it could follow other patterns. Aside from destructive curiosity (think Cyril Stanley Smith) there are no bad ways collecting swords.

Maybe I have to come out.

My name is Peter and I’m an accumulator.

A couple of times a year, I get out a bunch of katana. They are not my “collection”, simply swords I have accumulated. There’s a re-wrapped tsuka here, a polished blade there, and lots of “stabilized” lacquer. What there isn’t in this stuff, is a theme or school. They are basically swords I could acquire and did. I truly enjoyed getting them and can remember a story that came to me with each one. Beyond that it gives me great pleasure to look at this pile of stuff and realize that these swords could have walked along the Tokkaido. Those blades over there could have been at Sekigahara. This plane-jane was probably the property of a hardworking Edo period police officer. I like those feelings and I cannot be convinced that they are wrong.

Now, if I had sold these swords when the times were right (if ONLY!), I probably could afford to contact a dealer in Tokyo who would sell me a shodai Kunikane that I would love to own because IT would fit in my “collection.” But that is what I would see as simple accumulation. There is no adventure there – merely money.

Peter

[Pete Klein]

OMG! I've been tricked into attending a 'Nihontophile Twelve Step Program' meeting...

[Ken-Hawaii]

I hear you loud & clear, Peter. And your comments have actually shed a bit of light on why my grandkids - & their Japanese mother - are not really very interested in my wife's & my Nihonto collection.

 

Everything they collect does indeed fall into

1) joining a collecting community, 2) learning the standards of that group, and then 3) fitting in i.e. using that network and mastery of their standards to assemble a ‘collection.’

We had always wondered why they were so structured while we are not. Makes some sense now.

 

Thanks!

Ken

[Alex A]

I suspect a lot of specializers where at one time accumulators. Maybe long term accumulators are collectors that really never find anything they particularly wish to specialize in.

 

Alex.

[paulb]

Taking Alex's point a step further I would suggest that the greater majority of collectors start as accumulators. Their original purchase stimulated by any number of factors. Having accumulated a number of objects they then start to look at them more closely and study the subject in greater depth. For some the overriding thrill is in the chase,searching out a possible hidden treasure, buying something at a low price and gaining a kick through simply adding to the accumulation. As Chris mentioned there are a number of older collections that demonstrate that trend in abundance.

For others the research and study starts to overtake the need to accumulate. This can be governed by the limitation of available resources but it can also be a result of looking with greater understanding and appreciation at what you have. To be effective most collections have to be themed. Without focus the subject area is to vast and it would be impossible to collect high quality examples of everything. It makes sense for a collector to choose a theme that reflects their preferences.

I would also take it a stage further. After many years of collecting and study the need to acquire things greatly diminishes. It becomes more important to see examples of high end work and to try and appreciate why they are better than other pieces rather than adding to the numbers you have accumulated.

At this point a good reference library starts to become of greater importance than buying another sword.

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

It becomes more important to see examples of high end work and to try and appreciate why they are better than other pieces rather than adding to the numbers you have accumulated.

At this point a good reference library starts to become of greater importance than buying another sword.

 

 

Fully agreed.

[IanB]

All, An interesting thread that raises a serious philosophical question. I have no experience of sword societies in Japan, other than meeting members as individuals, but I have of an armour society and the overall impression was one of stultification. What was evident is perfectly summed up by the old proverb 'The nail that sticks up gets hammered down'. Imagine a collection of some 480 or so armours (at the Watanabe Museum in Tottori). I asked a prominent member rather naively if he had been, only to be told 'No, there is only one good piece there'. The reason for his reply was that Dr. Sasama had been and only photographed one helmet. In reality the place is stuffed with the most interesting items you would be hard pressed to see anywhere else. At a meeting whose theme was nodowa, what to me was the most absorbing item was almost totally ignored because it was Edo period. Does this sort of attitude lead to a greater understanding of the subject? Not in my opinion.

When it comes to swords, does gazing at a sword made by a famous smith, whose work has been written about by scholars since times immoral further our understanding of the Japanese sword? Again I would say no. Pick up almost any book on swords or armour and you see the same old items illustrated time and time again. You don't acquire knowledge of European painting by only looking at Rembrant's work, nor of Western literature by reading only Melville. Acquiring the humblest of swords can often lead to discoveries that do further our knowledge. I remember buying a junk hilt for the menuki only to find a lead weight in a cavity in the region of the kashira. Who knew that was done - very few I suspect. If your intent is in furthering knowledge of the Japanese sword or armour, the lacuna are lower in the quality chain.

Ian Bottomley

[Alex A]

It is interesting to see that behind the search for swords the quest for knowledge is far greater.

Alex

[w.y.chan]

I admire those who are interested in swords for education but not too tempted about amassing a collection. I'm not that person. However I don't have a target just buy what I fancy and definately don't consider myself a "serious" collector. I recently bought a particular type of sword just for the purpose of filming because it would look great on youtube, I do like the blade because it is a fine piece of craftsmanship but sharing the video online is above monetary value (also it helps attract attention to my editing skills or rather lack of it), when its done I most probably move the sword. When we really look at it we never really own any swords, we are all just mere guardians. My parents often says "if you cant eat it or wear it, it is not yours to keep". If I had frequent guaranteed access to a great collection anytime I want such as in a Japanese museum first thing I do is sell all my swords at rock bottom price to new collectors or donate to sword societies and spend my income on cameras instead.

[cabowen]

Clearly whether one seeks art or artifacts has a great bearing on one's collecting/accumulating tendencies. Those looking for artifacts tend to accumulating because they seem to find something worthy or interesting in nearly any item due to its place in history. And similarly, those that accumulate tend to end up with more artifacts than art.

[kusunokimasahige]

Being a dilletante as well as a historian I must say I agree fully with Ian.

 

To me personally the history of the object, in case its provenance is known, or the discovery one can make about an object is more important. Whether or not I can distinguish subtle differences in ji-nie between two different swordsmith's work is for me less interesting than the overall beauty and story of an item. Even though for instance the book by Nagayama is a great book and a great study item it is written in a manner which is not that accessible for students if they do not first learn all the vocabulary by heart. Though it is interesting and important to know differences between schools like Yamashiro-den or Soshu-den, the history of these schools and smiths interests me much more. The who, what, where, when, how and why form the underlying stories which to me are much more interesting.

 

Accumulating or hoarding is also something I know all about partly because of my collection of plastic Samurai model kits made in the 70's by Aoshima. I almost have the series complete. The same I have with the Doyusha Japanese Castle series, though that is still in production.

 

When it comes to Japanese art I simply like too many things to really put myself into one type of specialization. Most swords are beyond my means, but I enjoy seeing them a lot, whether that is for real (which is better) or on images. I also follow the discussions. I love the Edo Period topic on this forum because it is filled with great items, though at times it seems as if it is too much Teppo-oriented.

 

I realize Japanese art has a steep learning curve and I will never reach the top, but can at least aspire to become more knowledgeable. In History the fields of Ancient History of the Mediterranean world and the History of Japan from A.D.700-1868-1876 interest me most. On the subject of Modern History I am very interested in the air war above Europe during WWII and the war in the Pacific. I like to own bits of history. Paperwork, some militaria and other things.

 

Am I a "proper" Collector ? Probably not, but I do like "Collecting" in my own particular way.

 

Some of the things I "collect" I keep for a while untill I pass them on, whether as gift to fellow enthousiasts amongst my friends or by selling them to buy something nicer. The first sword I bought I will keep. It needs a polish one day by a proper and skillful Togishi. I would not want to send it by postal services but deliver it to the polisher by hand as well as pick it up myself.

 

To me the joy of collecting is more important than any self-esteem or applaud because of my knowledge it might get me. That is beside the point.

 

KM

[seattle1]

Hello:

Thanks Peter for the very interesting new thread, its originality witnessed by the quality, if not always fully agreeing, responses illicited. I have noticed many of the "quirks" of Japanese collectors, but never put them together in a useful paradigm. Did you major in anthropology or what?

Arnold F.

[Alex A]

Historic value definitely as its place in the nihonto collecting world. For example (hypothetically speaking), if you where offered a sword of historic value, say, a sword owned by one of the 47 Ronin, from a lower class smith OR a sword from a top rated smith of the same era, what would you choose?, just a thought...

 

Alex.

[paulb]

Ianb wrote:

When it comes to swords, does gazing at a sword made by a famous smith, whose work has been written about by scholars since times immoral further our understanding of the Japanese sword? Again I would say no.

 

Ian this is one of the few times I have to disagree with you. It depends what you are trying to achieve in your gazing. I would argue that if you are trying to understand the technology, identify the features and qualities that make something a masterpiece then you have to look at top range work. Using your painting analogy I agree that you will not gain a breadth of understanding by viewing the work of one artist. But by studying a range of top work from different periods and schools you can understand the process and technology better and gain a better appreciation of the at. Such study also enables you to understand lesser work better and to understand deficiencies.

You cannot understand a masterpiece properly, be it sword, painting sculpture or whatever by spending you time looking at the mediocre. The features that define top quality work are not there to see.

You describe finding a piece of lead in a tsuka and I agree with you it offers all sorts of questions and possible insight in to usage but it tells you nothing about the craft of sword making

I fully accept that for many the history usage etc. is the main fascination and I have listened to many lectures by you offering great insight into this. That is not the same as understanding and studying art swords and should not be confused as such or offered as the correct approach to understanding swords better.

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

I agree that you will not gain a breadth of understanding by viewing the work of one artist.

 

I think that all teachers of fine arts will disagree with that sentence, but it's off topic.

[Mark]

hope I am not getting off topic. I went to the exhibition at the MET in NY a while back that showed some great swords. National Treasures, JuBi etc. Many of them attained these levels based on their historical importance not based on their inherent qualities. While all the swords were interesting, most were fantastic, but a few did not excite me as I had expected. Maybe I have an untrained eye but I commented to a friend that a few of them I would have passed by if I saw them (just the blade with no information laying on a table) at a show priced at $5k. I think some of the swords were prized more for the history than the actual blade. My opinion is that if I am selling a blade I want a shoshin "big name" as it will bring the highest price, but if I am going to own it long term and enjoy its beauty and workmanship I want a great work by any smith, even low ranking, not a tired mediocre blade by a "big name" smith.

[IanB]

Paul, I absolutely agree with you that to understand the technology and identify the features of masterpiece swords demands that you should look at such blades and that such study will ultimately lead to an understanding of these blades. I am certain that nobody, myself included, would dispute that blades such as these are magnificent objects and eminently desirable, but that was not the point I was trying to make. The theme of this thread is about collecting Japanese swords, which I understand to mean far more than blades made by the great masters. I would also add that in my view the topic encompasses so much more than just blades. I have no problem whatsoever with someone who wishes to study blades made by the great and the good, nor indeed someone who studies only factory made blades of the Showa period. However, I still maintain the view that confining study to 'art swords' does little to advance our knowledge about the sword as a whole. Pick up almost any book on swords, other than the trivial, and it will describe in minute detail the features to be seen in a blade made by 'such and such' as well as giving details of his biography and his relationships if known. Studying these writings and identifying the features described will indeed aid in recognising such a blade. Having acquired that ability has certainly increased one's personal knowledge about the blade and its maker, but has it added anything to the knowledge about the Japanese sword? In my view the gaps in our knowledge, which are many and diverse, will not be filled by studying only a very small sub-set of the vast range of swords made and used in Japan, be they art swords or junk. There is a place for looking at everything.

Ian Bottomley

[kusunokimasahige]

Gentlemen. I am afraid that there is a case here of misunderstanding each others intentions or points of view.

 

It comes across to me that Ian is making valid scientific and scholarly remarks about studying swords and advancing the knowledge about them through "empirical" understanding while others appear to be thinking he is discarding those who are pleased with being able to tell the difference between several swords based on their (already known) descriptions by other masters in the field.

 

The one does not discount the other but is part of a different discipline as well as skillset altogether.

 

There are two distinct roads here, which can and do crossover at times but which are inherently different because the questions asked are different.

 

Take for instance a question like : "In what way differed the appreciation of swords in the Edo period from that of the Meiji period ?" To answer that question one should not only read several sources in Japanese from both periods, but should also know what the aspects and appreciation points which were being discussed by the Japanese in both periods were as well as have a thorough knowledge about the swords being discussed.

 

When all sides are researched and all (if possible) sources compared, as well as literature already written on the subject included, one then can make an academic assumption or base a thesis on the aforementioned question, and that writing could further knowledge about the world of the Japanese sword.

 

That is something entirely different as Kantei or sword appreciation. In art what one person can find gorgeous, other persons can find absolute muck. It is that aspect of collecting which differs from person to person. It is subjective and not objective.

 

The way this can become dangerous when researching swords to further knowledge as Ian has said, is the example that a Japanese collector told him a museum was not interesting because ! his Senpai/Sensei/person of authority told him so, and not because the person saw it himself. Following that behavior will kill all critical thinking and the asking of valid questions, and thus will not further knowledge at all.

 

KM