Muramasa on eBay

[JamesH]

Hi all,

 

I saw these two pieces on eBay from our friends Japanese-antiques-trading-and-shopping-center (who have been discussed here before):

 

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Japanese-SAM ... 7675.l2557

 

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Japanese-SAM ... 2ecacfabaa

 

How would I go about finding the original Japanese auction for these?

 

Also, just thinking out loud... Wouldn't a papered Muramasa be worth much more than what these guys are asking? I assume the price on the Japanese auction will be around half this, so is there something I am not seeing on these pieces?

 

If this is something not to be discussed, while auctions are active, please PM me.

 

 

 

With thanks,

James

[Pete Klein]

Refer to P. T. Barnum: There's a sucker born every minute. Possibly not an actual quote but it serves the purpose here.

 

"Old papers and wishful thinking cloud the senses of all but avarice".

P. Bennett Klein, esquire.

[J Reid]

Could be a less popular generation. I can't find that webpage with all the generations and their tell tale mei differences.. I will post later when I remember haha..

 

 

EDIT: and the old paper shenanigans..

EDIT 2: The blade in the first link looks okay I guess.. Or at least warrants some more research, however, it has what looks like unopened blisters and some other kizu..

[Lance]

TheTokubetsu Kicho papers from the tanto that sold look to be from 1985 (the questionable period?)

 

The other papers look to be Kicho from 1963, supposedly earlier papers are more trustworthy than later ones from the 80's? (looks to be a better made sword than the one that sold ,and appears to have the trademark bump in the hamon at hamachi, wether either are real Muramasa, and if so which generation is for better minds than me )

I do remember seeing an American dealer selling an unsigned tanto attributed to Muramasa a few years back for (I think) five or 6 thousand so $10,000 doesn't seem so unreasonably cheap that the price itself would raise suspicions, but it is the internet, everything's suspicious

As (in)famous and highly regarded as Muramasa are, I've seen a few pop up on dealer sites or auction catalogs with more current papers for between $10-$20,0000, katana at the upper range. (It's times like those I wish I studied harder in school or had a wealthy relative )

Some much higher too, but which generation and workmanship of a particular sword is a big factor, similar to price ranges for different generations of Kanemoto.

 

Below is a link to a good topic and article about Muramasa with mei examples that was created from the information posted, both are a great read.

 

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=8879&hilit=articles+muramasa

 

http://www.nihontomessageboard.com/arti ... amasa2.pdf

 

 

Regards,

Lance

[kunitaro]

As Jean san's advise

BTW: avoid ebay if you are not an expert

Also, there were a few discussion about Tokubetsukicho papers before.

 

This Tokubetsukicho paper of muramasa's hand wrting is not regular (compare to other TK papers).

So I think it is Local shinsa or even fake paper which is not good anyway.

 

Koshirae and fittings are modern. Habaki and seppas are also modern made.

Shirasaya looks older than Koshirae (see inside of Koiguchi)

( you can see sword bag is also new, compare to the bag for shirasaya )

 

When you see the blade, the blade itself looks good (looks like sue-mino)

but, Nakago is completely repatined. and the mei looks much fresher than the blade, you can see red(new) rust bottom of mei.

 

This is like a Ferrari kit car

 

The sword(s) with Tokubetsukicho paper for sale, is because it didn't get new Hozon or TH paper.

Tokubetsukicho papers are called "certification of Gimei/Gibutsu" in Japan.

 

Another Muramasa with Kicho paper which was issed Showa 38 (1963).

This paper seems to be original, however, the paper says "村正と追銘がある"(Muramasa to OKKAKE-MEI ga aru)

Okkake-mei or Ato-mei is meaning "later-signed" meanig "Gimei".

 

You can always ask the seller if he guarantee the mei and issuing new Hozon paper. all of JP sellers know exactly what they are selling.

[Curran]

TheTokubetsu Kicho papers from the tanto that sold look to be from 1985 (the questionable period?)

The other papers look to be Kicho from 1963, supposedly earlier papers are more trustworthy than later ones from the 80's? (looks to be a better made sword than the one that sold ,and appears

 

Regards,

Lance

 

By most of the 1980s, it was the Hozon and Tokubetsu Hozon system. The green papers of suspicion were largely from the late 1970s and the majority (or all) from non Tokyo branches of the NBTHK.

Kunitaro-san or others can be more accurate in explaining.

~~~Also, as I've said before in another post a while back, the whole Fear The Green Papers thing often backfires with Kodogu. Sure, be cautious with signed big name pieces with green papers, but many a green papered 'Akasaka' or 'Nishigaki' tsuba now comes back with more specific ie Better attributions to Nidai Tadamasa, Sandai Tadatora, or Kanshiro. The full understanding and more papering of kodogu seems to have lagged swords by a few decades. Wakayama's 3 vol set didn't get published until the late 1970s.

~~~Sometimes it is absurd:In late 2009 a collection popped out of the woodwork with no ceremony at auction. All had old early 1970s green papers. The first round of Jingo & Hayashi went for penny on the USD because everyone hesitated. By the 3rd and 4th round Ito-san & others were slugging it out up to and past $10000 for some of the shodai, nidai, and a few other exceptional tsuba. Truly some unique and rare ones in there, but the initial green paper reaction kept everyone but the brave away the first round.

Big name swords with green papers... yeah, pause. Kodogu is a different story for various reasons including economics and knowledge base of the 1970s.

[kusunokimasahige]

I have also seen papers being sold on ebay without swords. Not really a good thing imho.

 

KM

[Lance]

Looks like my reading of the date must have been wrong, it appears that tokubetsu kicho pares stopped in 1982?

 

http://www.nihontocraft.com/japanese_sword_papers.html

 

I understand about the green papers and fittings, the financial motivations probably aren't as high, in part to there being a lot more fittings than swords available.

 

I do have a question about the way that these older papers are perceived, is it only the examples in Japan? where it would be less complicated to resubmit; no overseas shipping, customs and agents to deal with? What about all the old time collections in the US, Europe, etc. with these papers? I understand that with the Internet creating more of an global market it's easier for items to travel from one place to another, and ultimately the blade or tosogu have to be judged on their own merits and not just a paper, but it seems like older papers outside of Japan in older collections are safer?

Excuse me while I put on my tinfoil conspiracy hat : is there any validity to the idea that the old papers are inferior could be seen as a way to get a new stream of subnissions for "current" origami? I mean, except for the supposed branch office problems, most of the reference sources are already hundred(s) of years old, and many newer references were written by the same generation/group who may have been part of issuing these earlier papers?

 

Kuniitro-san mentioned the second paper as having Okkake-mei or Ato-mei: so was this once acceptable and now it isn't?

 

 

Regards,

Lance

[Jean]

Lance,

 

I presume you have heard of DTI, each year a catalogue is issued were you can find example of Muramasa tantos with mei or not, you will see there are often some constant features in the koshiba and in the fact that often the hamon is symetrical on both sides of the blade.

 

Here there are no way to compare both sides of the blades, they are on ebay with old papers and crisped signature. What do you think?

 

What are the odds of having Muramasa blades sold on ebay when they are catalogued in DTI review?

Muramasa is certainly a legend but in my humble opinion overrated because of this.

 

Don't loose time trying to understand why blades got old certificates, there can be different reasons but all will be speculative.

 

FOR SWORDS

 

Don't focus on old certificates, big names= new certificates - it is mandatory unless being an expert.

 

 

Beware it is totally different with Tosogu - keep in mind what told me a day a Japanese expert, Tosogu study is easier than Nihonto study. After a year of serious study, one can develop a basic sense of aesthetic and kantei schools for basic tsubas (Heianjo ...) Try only to do it for Nihonto ... 25000 listed swordsmiths=25000 exceptions.

 

As stated by Clive Sinclair in my last thread about Advices to beginners, there is only one way to learn quickly about blades. Go to Japan, find a master in kantei and spend 10 years learning.

 

Experience is the key. Take Kunitaro san, for example, he was very clear in his explanations and clearly established the reasons why these tantos are not Muramasa. Experience will tell you what to look for BUT it won't help you in kanteing the blade..

 

What can we say from these blades? They were chosen because their nakago typically fits Muramasa's ones... They can be from the Sengo school

[Lance]

Yes I've heard of Dai Token Ichi, I'm also familiar with key kantei points for Muramasa's hamon being a mirror image on both sides, and if suguha having koshiba (bump) at hamachi I've only handled one tanto and seen others at the Met in NY so I am certainly not an expert ,If you read all my posts I clearly stated that I wasn't qualified to state if they were genuine or which generation, just that price-wise I've seen swords by Ise--Muramasa school online in the past for between $5-10,000 sold by reputable dealers and auctions houses simply to dispel the notion that they all cost $50-100,000....

 

Unsigned, I think this was under $10,000 and from a much more reputabler seller

 

http://www.nihonto.us/MURAMASA%20TANTO%20-%20NIDAI.htm

 

 

 

The chances of finding a Muramasa on Ebay are pretty small but what are the chances of finding a sword by Hizen Iyo No Jo Munetsugu with an inscrription that it was a gift from a member of the Honda clan in 1730, the same year they were given control over the Tanaka Domain at a local community center where they hold a small militaria show 3 times a year, the rest of the time they host the Cub Scouts, have bake sales and bingo night I did so nothing's totally impossible.....(not adding this to try and get into any kind of contest I know I'd lose, just to illustrate that stranger things have happened)

 

 

 

The other post was a tongue in cheek remark and question as to why it seems like ALL old papers for SWORDS from the 70's and 80's are deemed suspect, How many swords were sent to the NBTHK when kicho and tokubetsu kicho issued, this is especially relevant as I sometimes come into contact with these

from older collections. (on a smaller scale as I'm a small timer)

 

 

I also don't think developing an eye for quality or the finer points of judging fittings is any easier than swords, the same way you might have a Sengo school or Mino in that style with a signature added, you could find a Hamano piece with Shozui added. Judging Iron tsuba is an art unto itself The ability to recognize and appreciate different schools of tsubako and other fittings makers, even attributing them to a certain generation certainly deserves as much respect as kantei for blades by era and school, and smith, let alone recognizing a valid mei if signed.

 

 

Lastly the question about the tanto with kicho papers is certainly valid even if only for the sake of discussion: Assuming the papers from 1963 are real and were issued for this tanto; what was the rationale for accepting ato-mei at the time? I'm not obsessing over it but Ido find it interesting and I'm genuinely curious why this was acceptable back then?

 

Regards,

Lance

[tom]

Sold in Japan.

Here the Link.

 

http://page14.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/a ... s353631781

 

 

Take a look.

 

Tom

[Eric H]

Looks like my reading of the date must have been wrong

The Tokubetsu Kicho paper is from 1979. It‘s a regrettable fact, that the older system „kicho - tokubetsu kicho - koshu tokubetsu kicho“ has lost credibility because of manipulations by local NBTHK appraisers... and involved dealers.

To discriminate ALL these papers as Certification of gimei/gibutsu is disproportionately. Only the thought to replace these papers by submitting those swords in collections outside of Japan again to NBTHK is absurd. However some questions and considerations by Lance are qualified.

 

Eric

[kusunokimasahige]

Sold in Japan...

 

Tom

 

See also number 3 of the negative feedback on Ebay, and the comment in reply :

 

http://feedback.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAP ... gative_365

[Brian]

Thanks for the link Tom,

So....can someone explain to me how this sold in Japan for $15K, and was sold on eBay for an offer less than $9K?

 

Brian

[Jean]

Lance,

 

Most of the tsuba I have seen were unsigned, in fact, the majority, so kantei points were developped to be able to quickly ascertain to which school belongs a tsuba. Hitsu ana patterns, difference of thickness between rim and blade ana....

 

Now take a Nihonto student and a tosogu student, both having studied their subject for a year.

 

Put them in front of 50 blades and 50 tsubas after one year of study. Tsuba being iron or sukashi or kinko, swords being schools at random. Guess who will get the greatest score kantei? I am just talking of schools, not makers.

 

I am not talking about gimei tsuba. The quality and aesthetic is very important in tosogu kantei, once you have hold an Umetada Myoju or a Natsuo, it is easier to spot fakes without having to refer to the mei.

 

I am sure that a tosogu newbie student will spot easily a Kyo sukashi tsuba, that won't be the case for a newbie nihonto student trying to spot a blade with masame and having to chose between Mihara, Nio or Yamato or Mino (not speaking of the difference between the 5 schools)... That's why it is easier to begin with Tosogu than with Nihonto.

 

Seldom you can encounter someone specialized as well in Tosogu as in Nihonto. Raiden (Mike Y.) is undoubtedly one of them.

[tom]

Thanks for the link Tom,

So....can someone explain to me how this sold in Japan for $15K, and was sold on eBay for an offer less than $9K?

 

Brian

 

 

Hi Brian,

about this Dealer on Ebay, he has not one of the item what he list on ebay.

He list always first the pictures on ebay from other auctions on Yahoo.

He copie the pictures from the auctions on Yahoo.

After he has it sold on ebay, he buy this item after on Yahoo, and sometimes he dont get it.

 

Sorry for me English.

 

Tom

[Brian]

Yes, I know that. But usually they list items that can be bought on the Yahoo auctions for cheaper than they are asking. In other words, Buy It Now items or items that are guaranteed not to sell for less. And they double or triple their price on eBay.

In this case, I can't see how they got it that wrong..and still accepted an offer?

Would be interesting to see the resulting feedback.

 

Brian

[tom]

Yes, I know that. But usually they list items that can be bought on the Yahoo auctions for cheaper than they are asking. In other words, Buy It Now items or items that are guaranteed not to sell for less. And they double or triple their price on eBay.

In this case, I can't see how they got it that wrong..and still accepted an offer?

Would be interesting to see the resulting feedback.

 

Brian

 

 

Check this.

 

On Yahoo:

 

http://page2.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/b149459590

 

On Ebay:

 

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Rare-Japanes ... 2ecac43ba1

 

Tom

[kusunokimasahige]

Brian, it is highly likely that when they sell something through Yahoo they then make an arrangement with a friend who makes an offer on ebay after which both mark the item as sold, paid and shipped and leave feedback while no money actually changed hands.

 

This is one way to quit an auction before it ends on ebay.

 

They still would have to pay the Ebay fee though.

[Adrian]

Or creates a bogus ebay account, use it to do BIN and then gives it negative feedback with the main account for not paying the item.

[Brian]

Yes..I think it likely that they made their own offer, then accepted it and mutually cancelled the auction. Makes sense, although devious and underhanded.

As for the one you just posted Tom...that is exactly what I said...the eBay price is much higher than the Yahoo one....which is unlikely increase to the level of the eBay one.

 

Brian