Identification

[dynkykato]

Guys, can anyone identify this sword? It is genuine?Gendai, or not?

Thanks.

[Stephen]

http://home.earthlink.net/~ttstein/sukenori.jpg

 

its a true gunto, does it have a faint stamp, i cant see one.

[Daniel]

Genuine yes but I think I see a faint seki stamp so not Gendaito.

[nihonto1001]

  Quote

Genuine yes but I think I see a faint seki stamp so not Gendaito.

 

Kanemichi was a Gendai smith who worked in Seki in the Mino tradition. Some of his traditional works have a Seki stamp.

[cabowen]

  nihonto1001 said:

Kanemichi was a Gendai smith who worked in Seki in the Mino tradition. Some of his traditional works have a Seki stamp.

 

Blade is signed Mizuta Sukenori; not sure what Kanemichi has to do with this blade????

 

In any case, this blade is most likely non-traditional.

[dynkykato]

Can you post a picture of Seki stamp?

Thans.

[Stephen]

viewtopic.php?f=50&t=8010

[nihonto1001]

  Quote

Blade is signed Mizuta Sukenori; not sure what Kanemichi has to do with this blade????

 

Just an example of Gendai with Arsenal Stamp. It seems like most rules are not set in stone with this stuff.

[SwordGuyJoe]

On this one the rules are pretty well set in stone. Stamp (other than star) = non-traditional. Star = traditional (though some will argue based on an outdated and since proven in accurate reference).

[runagmc]

Hey Joe ***where ya goin' with that gun in your hand***, ehmm... sorry... with all the Gendaito you've owned you should know more than most, it's not quite that simple... there are other stamps that don't signify non-traditional craftsmanship (Nagoya, etc.)... but typical "Seki" stamp and "Showa" stamp are thought to mean some form of non-traditional manufacture was used...

[nihonto1001]

  Quote

Stamp (other than star) = non-traditional. Star = traditional (though some will argue based on an outdated and since proven in accurate reference).

 

I do not mean to open up a can of worms, but I am one of those people, I guess. The Kanemichi I mentioned has both hada and hamon, indicative of a traditionally made sword. Also, the reference manual lists him as a good Gendaito maker. So where do we draw the line between Gendaito and Showato? Maybe the line is obscure, especially with specimens in which a mixture of traditional and modern methods are employed.

 

What is the exact definition of Gendaito anyway? If it is just "traditionally made swords of the era," then should nanban-tetsu swords of the Shinto Period be considered true Nihonto? Perhaps at one time, they were not.

 

What I am getting at here is, the etymology of words are in a constant state of flux. However, I am a conservative, if there is an exact definition, I would like to know it.

[runagmc]

There isn't an exact definition (but there is) :D ... exceptions and bent rules are the rule... :D

 

I don't think we have any evidence suggesting traditiional manufacture in Seki and Showa stamped swords (like with star stamped RJT swords), so most consider them non-traditional, even when they look tradational

[cabowen]

People love to drag out the nanban tetsu case as proof that there are "non-traditionally made" nihonto, usually in defense of WWII era showa-to. It isn't so simple.

 

Blades made before the end of the Edo era using nanban tetsu are considered traditional because the smiths took that material and put it through the kaji-oroshi process, mixing it with tamahagane, to purify and adjust the carbon content, through orikaeshi-tanren, just as they have done for 1000 years. They didn't just take a bar of nanban tetsu, hammer it into a blade shape and quench it, as was done during WWII with western steels.

 

What is a "traditional" nihon-to? One that uses tamahagane or other steels (through kaji-oroshi) in an orikaeshi-tanren process to produce a blade of laminated construction that is then quenched in water.

 

WWII blades were made in a plethora of ways in an effort to conserve tamahagane, to produce swords that performed better in cold weather, and to produce swords cheaper, quicker, and in volume. Most, if not all of these methods, used oil as a quench medium and western steel. Some were partially forged (called han-ten) and can have something like hada. Some may have been put through kaji-oroshi and oil quenched. These can have hada and hamon and be very deceptive unless you are very familiar with them and know what to look for (a Seki or Showa stamp is one give away but they are not always stamped).

 

The only "stamped" blades that are considered traditional (they were required to be made of tamahagane, orikaeshi-tanren, water quenched) are those with the hoshi kokuin (star stamp). There may be some unique/smith specific/rare stamps used on other traditionally made blades, but these are few and far between.

 

There were some smiths, mostly in Seki, that were known to make both traditional and non-traditional blades. These need to be evaluated carefully because most blades made in Seki, even by these smiths, were not traditionally made. Traditional work from Seki, especially post 1940, is rare.

[nihonto1001]

Here is an interesting example of a Gendaito made in the Mino tradition with two stamps; a Star and Seki stamp.

 

http://www.nihontocraft.com/Kanehide.html

[cabowen]

Kanehide was a known Rikugun Jumei Tosho and this blade, with the star stamp, is traditionally made according to military regulations. The tiny stamp on the nakago mune, while it appears to be the 関　Seki kanji, it isn't the same Seki stamp used on non-traditionally made Seki blades. This is just an origination stamp, like the small 名 Na stamp indicating Nagoya Arsenal seen on the mune of blades. It has no connection to the larger Seki stamp seen on the nakago-ji of showa-to indicating non-traditional manufacture.

 

And actually, that Kanehide blade, like most of his, is done in the Bizen tradition, not Mino....

[SwordGuyJoe]

  runagmc said:

Hey Joe ***where ya goin' with that gun in your hand***, ehmm... sorry... with all the Gendaito you've owned you should know more than most, it's not quite that simple... there are other stamps that don't signify non-traditional craftsmanship (Nagoya, etc.)... but typical "Seki" stamp and "Showa" stamp are thought to mean some form of non-traditional manufacture was used...

 

I recently read an article outlining how a "non-traditional" vs. "traditional" lines can be blurred and the nanbantetsu argument has already been brought up. So to avoid that, the article discussed that after x date (1937??? But don't recall) stamps were applied to blades that were in some form or another forged non-traditionally. This includes any one or multiple factors:

1. Steel: mill steel/rail steel vs tamahagane

-- a good question to this point is why Mikasa steel is considered traditional, but rail steel is not. I have seen a papered Akihide that is signed as using Mikasa tetsu

2. Forging: machine assisted vs. hand forged

3. Quenching: oil vs water

 

Any of these points are not the latter, you have yourself showato. That said, if rail steel was put through the traditional methods on 2-3 and it was before the adoption of the stamp, a kanteisho team would be hard pressed to say it is non-traditional.

 

So I see what you're saying, but I do have to agree with Chris that most of these arguments come from folks who own a stamped blade and really want it to be traditional though by definition it is not. If someone wants a traditional made sword by a 2M yen smith, I think I know a guy selling one on eBay (SHAMELESS PLUG!).

[cabowen]

  SwordGuyJoe said:

 

I recently read an article outlining how a "non-traditional" vs. "traditional" lines can be blurred and the nanbantetsu argument has already been brought up. So to avoid that, the article discussed that after x date (1937??? But don't recall) stamps were applied to blades that were in some form or another forged non-traditionally. This includes any one or multiple factors:

1. Steel: mill steel/rail steel vs tamahagane

-- a good question to this point is why Mikasa steel is considered traditional, but rail steel is not. I have seen a papered Akihide that is signed as using Mikasa tetsu

2. Forging: machine assisted vs. hand forged

3. Quenching: oil vs water

 

Any of these points are not the latter, you have yourself showato. That said, if rail steel was put through the traditional methods on 2-3 and it was before the adoption of the stamp, a kanteisho team would be hard pressed to say it is non-traditional.

 

So I see what you're saying, but I do have to agree with Chris that most of these arguments come from folks who own a stamped blade and really want it to be traditional though by definition it is not. If someone wants a traditional made sword by a 2M yen smith, I think I know a guy selling one on eBay (SHAMELESS PLUG!).

 

 

Just to clarify a few points:

 

1. Mikasa steel was put through oroshigane, just like nanban tetsu. Blades made by traditionally trained smiths who know how to do this can use many different forms of steel and through this process, make it suitable for orikaeshi-tanren and water quenching. This is considered a traditional part of the craft. Pounding railway steel into swords is not. Are you sure it was an Akihide and not Toshihide? Toshihide made hundreds of commemorative tanto inscribed with "Mikasa tetsu"...

 

2. As Joe notes, using railway steel, putting it through oroshigane process, then orikaeshi tanren, then water quenching, would be for all intents and purposes, traditionally made. The issue with this is, mill steel was already fairly clean and does not need orikaeshi tanren to drive off the impurities and purify it. Thus there is no reason to do this and in fact, few seem to have done this, if any. But if it was done, it would be impossible to tell by a visual inspection.

[SwordGuyJoe]

Yes - Toshihide.

[Nobody]

  cabowen said:

..............

Blade is signed Mizuta Sukenori; not sure what Kanemichi has to do with this blade????

 

In any case, this blade is most likely non-traditional.

Allow me a little correction.

That is not Mizuta but Nagata (永田).

[cabowen]

Thanks for the correction, again! I need to be more careful before hitting the reply button....

[nihonto1001]

  Quote

(they were required to be made of tamahagane, orikaeshi-tanren, water quenched)

 

That definition works for me. Gentlemen, thanks, this has been a very informative thread. Did not mean to Hijack it.

[dynkykato]

Thanks all.

[GregD]

Hada ,hamon,Showa stamp,non-traditional

[Brian]

Greg,

Pic of the nakago and stamp would be a help. Definitely hada.

 

Brian

[Dr Fox]

Chris

 

For me, does the 'tan' stamp qualify a blade as being traditionally forged? Always understood this not so common stamp, from Seki City to qualify a blade as traditionally made.

[cabowen]

The "tan" 鍛 stamp indicates the blade has been forged, but doesn't tell us what material was used or what was used to quench the blade. I think these would need to be evaluated on a blade by blade basis, lacking any definitive definitions from period literature.