Tiffany's Sword Pictures

[sencho]

After Tiffany's enquiry before about her sword here are the pictures of it.... of course none of us had any idea it had a bloody Horimono!!!

 

Cheers!!

[sencho]

... and some more

[sencho]

and more including date

[Tiffany]

I am so thankful for all of the help I am getting. The sword is missing the

wooded plug in the side to hold the handle on. .Can that be replaced? Wow I getting quite excited about it's history. I would like to know more about the scroll if possible too.

Thanks,

Tiffany

[Rich T]

there is a mei there as well. Tiffany, is the tang signed on both sides ?, clear closeups of both sides would be useful to members.

 

Is this the Bizen Sukesada you sent me inan email??

 

Cheers

 

Richard

[sencho]

It is the same Bizen Sukesada, Rich.... a sword collector a few years before wrote this out for the mei....

[Tiffany]

What is the significance of this. It sure is beautiful!

[sencho]

Mei and date

 

left these intentionally big so people can zoom a little.... they may not display and a click maybe required

[Rich T]

Well Tiffany, providing this writing is legitimate, it tells us exactly who made the sword and when.

 

Sukesada (name) , a resident of Osafune village in Bizen provence made this sword in May, in the third year of Tensho, or May, 1575.

 

 

Cheers

 

Richard

[Stephen]

for better viewing...the ware area on the top Nakago-ana looks to be a bit of a concern to me, it would be better to see pix sans tsuba habaki

[Grey Doffin]

Tiffany, Yes, the missing pin through the handle can be replaced and it should be replaced ASAP. Without a pin (mekugi) to constrain the blade in the handle, if the sword is dropped or bumped the blade can crash down inside the scabbard and shatter its tip in the scabbard bottom. It is also likely to fall out of the handle if you're drawing or looking at the blade.

You can whittle a new pin from a bamboo chopstick. It doesn't have to be pretty or authentic but it does have to be there.

Grey

[sencho]

Hi Tiffany,

 

I noticed on one of the pictures you sent, that there was a screw and plastic sleeve lying nearby... is this what was in place of the pin?? Not ideal, but at least the plastic sleeve was there...

 

Follow Grey's advice on that one......

 

by the way it is definitely an interesting sword and needs some investigation... Any chance of pictures without the Tsuba (hand guard), Seppa (spacers) and Habaki (collar)???

 

As far as smith's go there are 3 that I can see that signed that way from around Tensho period.couple of sukesada's signed this way...

 

Hawley's SUK30 1558-73 P. 675 60pts 3rd Gen... however listed in Fujishiro koto volume without "saku" and the sho 正　on tensho doesn't look to match....

 

SUK 834 same page 1563 15pts has same mei... maybe no oshigata of him though..

 

Also SUK 854 1573 15pts P.676.... the "Fujiwara Sukesada" sometimes signed this way according to hawleys.

 

seems like a few others signed without the saku on the end around this time... what are the chances of the odd saku being added by mistake??

 

Cheers

[Stephen]

as per my email one really cannot call the mei good or bad with the pix posted, it needs to be done in hand. Nigel has done a good job narrowing it down to a few Sukesada, To bad its to late for this weekend shinsa...unless you guys flew into the Twin Cities this weekend...see below link for the Show and Shinsa

http://militaria.co.za/nihontomessagebo ... php?t=1510

[Tiffany]

I will take some pictures this afternoon with out the Tsuba. The screw was indeed put in the handle with a plastic sleeve to insure no damage. I will have my husband carve a wood pen ASAP.

Thanks for the help.

[Stephen]

Has the board seen many Sukesada with Dragon horimono? Could it been added later in shinto times???

[pcfarrar]

I handled one in the British museum a few weeks ago. Had a similar horimono if I remember correctly and also the Bizen Kuni mei and date.

 

I suspect the horimono on this sword was a later addition. It looks to sharp with minimal wear to be old. Probably added on for WW2.

[Min Lee]

Curious...

 

Do these Sukesada mei with a date mean anything compaired to Sukesada mei with out a date? (quality of make?)

 

I have a Bishu Osafune Sukesada with a date(1351) that I got in a trade...

 

Due to "Bishu" it means it's not very good right?

 

Don't mean to hijack tiffiny's thread. Just curious while we are on the subject of Sukesada.

 

Thanks.

[Mark Green]

I agree with Peter. The Dragon looks new. It may have been done at this swords last polish. Going off to WW2.

Does anyone read the bonji ?

Mark G

[Tim]

Hi all, been some time since I've posted. I had an account at the old forum location. I don't own any swords anymore, but the interest is still there.

 

The horimono reminds me of my friend's sword, who I have yet to convince him to part with it. :D

 

Tim

 

 

 

 

[Tiffany]

IS THIS THE SHOW I NEED TO REGISTER FOR IN SAN FRANCISCO?

 

SAN FRANCISCO TOKEN-KAI

 

August 16,17,18, and 19, 2007

 

Held at the San Francisco Airport Marriott Hotel

 

Contact: Fred Weissberg, P.O. Box 7156, San Carlos, CA 94070

 

Phone: (650) 595-1703

 

email address: hageyama@mindspring.com

[Stephen]

V you mean register for the hotel? Yes, you would not need to have a table to show your sword around.

[Jean]

Min Lee,

 

 

I have a Bishu Osafune Sukesada with a date(1351) that I got in a trade...

 

Due to "Bishu" it means it's not very good right?

 

Wrong, for the following reason :

 

Bishu Osafune ...is a very common mei, all depends when the sword was forged : before Onin or after.

 

Before Onin, it can be a very good sword, after it has to be checked on a case by case basis, it is usually commonly accepted that "Bishu Osafune .." mei swords are of poor grade (Bundle swords) but they are also fine swords with a mei beginning by "Bishu Osafune .."

 

Rule of thumb, never take anything for granted in Nihonto.

 

I think that NMB members will gladly welcome a new thread with some pictures of your blade showing Nakago omote/ura, boshi and mono uchi with the usual inventory sheet giving blade characteristics (measurements ...)

 

It is a very good exercise and enables one to study blade very carefully

[Darcy]

Jean is right about the mei. There is at least one Juyo Token with a Bishu Osafune Sukesada mei, this is by Hikobeinojo according to the NBTHK.

 

After this usually the more detailed the signature the higher quality the work as a rule of thumb.

 

Inclusion of a date is also good.

 

In the case of Tiffany's sword, I have my doubts about the mei. The nakagojiri looks more like iriyamagata than the chestnut shape of Sue-Bizen. That would put it into Shinto. The mei looks a bit sloppy to me too and rubbed down to try to age it. Makes me feel that the nakago is ubu, the top hole is original, and the bottom hole was placed to try to make it look a bit suriage.

 

I could be wrong.

[Min Lee]

Thank you Mr. Jean / Mr. Darcy.

 

Well, I spoke too soon I guess. At the time of my post I didn't have the blade in hand. It arrived about couple hours after my posting here. The sword does not have a second set of mei on the ura side for date. I miss understood what the gentleman I'm trading with was saying. It was dated by Alfred Tan, the gentleman whom he bought it from. I posted a pic of the mei on another thread thinking maybe I might have missed something on the omote side. this was of course before my conversation with the said gentleman I'm trading with cleared things up. Were any work of Sukesada from around 1351 any good?... generally speaking of course.

The blade is badly in need of polish so I'm not sure if posting pics of it would do any good. It's a wakizashi with about 22" nagasa.

 

Anyway, don't want to hijack this thread. Thanks again for your help and info.

[Jean]

Min Lee,

 

I am returning to work and do not have availibiliy of my archives but if my old brain still works I remember of an Osafune Sukesada smith working at the end of Nambokucho around Mei Toku. Sukesada is as often used as name in Bizen province as "Smith" in England :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

That's the best pun I could make today (not bad for a frog) and the last one

for a fortnight as I am leaving for a 2 week holidays in South of France.

 

So long mates, be back in July

[Darcy]

I didn't see your sword Min so don't know, I was just looking at Tiffany's and making a general observation.

 

The Sukesada name gets very big around the time of Hikobeinojo (late 1400s). I think there are some that work before this time, but Fujishiro does not document them.

 

After Hikobeinojo and Yosozaemonnojo the Sukesada group is very dominant in Sue Bizen. The top smiths of the group are in my opinion the best smiths of Sue Bizen, and in particular Yosozaemonnojo is arguably the best smith of the late Muromachi period in all traditions.

 

The mass-produced swords are just that, mass produced items so each has to be taken on its own for its merits. But in general, I think this was one of the "brand names" of the period and so reflected a reliable and good quality item.

 

If it is a signed Sukesada wakizashi that you have, please go ahead and post what pictures you do have. It is possible that it is Shinto period, the Sukesada line did continue and there are some good quality Shinto smiths signing Sukesada. I would think it doubtful without seeing it that it was koto based on the configuration as a wakizashi.

[Min Lee]

Thanks again Mr. Jean/ Mr. Darcy.

 

I'll try to get some photos up tomorrow in brighter setting.

I have one of those super tiny digitals that don't do too well in low light.

 

I do have atleast a pic of the mei up on another thread titled "translation help please".

 

Thanks again.

[Tiffany]

Suriage?

[Brian]

Suriage = shortened from the bottom of the tang up.

 

Brian

[Tiffany]

Why would someone do this? What would the purpose be? As for as the Mei I just received the choji oil which I will use to clean it up a bit and send in some more pictures when I return from vacation. The markings on the sword appear to me all the same as far as detail. It doesn't appear in person the Mei has been tampered with. What makes you think this?

Do you think this sword is authentic?