Mizukage?

[Brian]

This auction: http://cgi.ebay.com/SAMURAI-Katana-Swor ... dZViewItem

If you open the extra pics at http://daimyouhime.web.infoseek.co.jp/H1-922/index.htm and look at the 14th pic (IMG_2009.JPG) is this an example of mizukage?

Just out of interest..for those of us who haven't seen it before, and need to know what to look out for. Anyone agree?

 

Brian

[Mike]

Agree. It looks like it came out of a text-book, very clear.

Mike

[Darcy]

Yes, seems to be the case.

 

Also, this is correct in identifying the bad sort of mizukage. Mizukage can be OK on a sword that is not suriage. You see it often in Horikawa Kunihiro.

 

When suriage, it shows a sign of the end of tempering... so tempering coming to an end (i.e. hamon is original length) + sword not original length = temper happened after sword was shortened, which means it is saiha.

 

Since this one is obviously suriage, the mizukage leads one to the conclusion that it is saiha.

[Stephen]

wouldn't one expect to see it on both sides by the hamachi?

[mike yeon]

It does look like a mizukage but the rest of the blade doesn't exhibit the usual qualities of a retempered blade.

 

Unless my eyes are mistaken, I see decent activity in the hamon, a good amount of nie, and the boshi looks pretty well defined. If retempered, seems like someone did a good job?

 

Just my 2 cents.

 

mike

[Wim V]

interesting point you made Stephen.

 

Another thing I was wondering: in the textbook examples I have seen, the mizukage line starts near the hamachi and slopes at an approx 45 degree angle in the direction of the kissaki. In the case of the sword discussed here the line seems to slope the other way (towards the nakago). Maybe both are possible

 

Examples I quickly found: page 113 of Nagayama Kokan's conoisseur book under "flaws"; and the attached picture from Dr. Stein's website.

 

Wim

[Grey Doffin]

I don't think that is mizukage and I'm not certain that the sword is more than a little suriage. The seller states that the blade is naginata-naoishi, a cut down naginata. In that case the original mekugi-ana would have been lost when the nakago was lopped off and the lower of the 2 mekugi-ana we see could be the ana that was put in when the blade was mounted as a sword.

Rather than mizukage, the line at the ha-machi looks to me to be where oil wasn't completely wiped off. Yes, if it were mizukage I'd expect to see it on both sides and it should be at 45 degrees the other way.

That said, the numerous grain openings are stronger evidence of retemper. The opening bid is higher than the sword is worth, I think. Best not to buy.

Grey

[Jean]

Interesting blade,

 

I am not a specialist but I think that the question we have to answer is : What is the meaning of Mizukage (let aside Horikawa Kunihiro)?

 

Mizukage means that the blade has been retempered, if this is the case, can a sword be retempered only on one side?

I should answer no as it seems almost impossible to heat only one side of the blade to have iot retempered.

 

Other question : How a blade can loose its tempered edge only on one side? Difficult ...

 

Now, look at the other side of the blade at the hamachi, no sign of any Mizukage, ko ashi seem visible.

 

On the presumed Mizukage side of the blade, the hamon is looking nioi deki and seems to be running under the Mizukage line.

 

IMHO, I won't say this is Mizukage.

[Brian]

Good info guys

It is good to be able to disect apparent flaws like this, and look beyond the obvious and discuss. All valid points, and some great info.

So not a cut and dried case of mizukage possibly...but seeing this you should start to ask a few questions.

As always, nothing in Nihonto is as it appears at first glance

 

Brian

[Martin]

Mizukage means that the blade has been retempered...

 

Is this really correct :? ?

I heard and read, that Mizukage does not necessarily mean that a blade was re-tempered. It rather describes a certain way (angle of 45 degrees) on how the Utsuri starts.

 

http://www.ksky.ne.jp/~sumie99/utsuri.html#mizukage

 

cheers,

[Brian]

Some books say that mizukage is a proof of re-tempering. But it is not true. Such information has been confusing beginners.

Mizukage means just a starting of tempering effect. It comes from the tempering work. It is very natural for original length blades.

(Please see => re-tempering , you will understand why they misunderstood the relation between mizukage and re-tempering.)

 

Do not confuse starting of tempering effect to starting of hamon. Sometimes hamon is controlled by the clay work.

 

Most of case on blades before 17th century, starting of hamon is same to starting of tempering effect. In other words the tang is not hardened by the tempering work.

But after 17th century, it became common that hamon design is controlled by smith's skill of clay work.

Starting of hamon also made by the clay work. Probably mizukage should be in the tang.

 

Hmm..some interesting and thought provoking info there. It doesn't quite tie in with all the info normally published, but Usagiya is usually pretty reliable and a good source of reference. Lots to think about.

 

Brian

[paulb]

I recently had a conversation on this subject with a colleague. Over recent years (and maybe even earlier) retempering has been regarded in a very negative light. Not only does it have a detremental effect on the blade (courseness in the hada, dullness and lack of activity in the hamon etc) but also it means that an essential part of the swords construction and appearance is no longer by the hand of the original smith. Its a bit like owning a Rembrant that is 50% the work of a restorer.

 

However wasnt one of Yasutsugus main tasks re-tempering blades for tokugawa Ieyasu?

You never see these works being condemned as sahei (come to think of it you dont see thse works identified as re-tempered)

So like everything else I wonder if the issue here is quality. A good smith skilled at re-tempering and able to copy the work of the original smith could perhaps produce a work that still had value.

If you consider the prevelance of wood construction in buildings throughout Japanese history, fire was an almost continuous hazard. I suspect that there are very many swords which have been damaged in fires and re-hardenned at some point in their history. But we only recognise this in swords that have not been re-tempered well.

[mike yeon]

Paul brings up a good point about a retemper job done by a skilled smith to restore a great blade vs. a hasty one done to simply bring back utility to a burnt out blade.

 

A retempered blade in general is a negative thing becuase the intended qualities that made a good balde a good blade are lost (activities, shape, etc.) no matter how good the job was. BUT in certain cases I believe it's acceptable.

 

For example, I've handled a signed, ubu, ko-ichimonji tachi that I believe had juyo papers. This blade was retempered (only clues at first glance was a slight/odd saki-zori.) This blade is seen as valuable becuase the retemper job was good, and because frankly, how many signed/ubu/ko-ichimonji tachi are still around today?

 

As for the blade in question, wouldn't there be a lack of nie since at the high temperature needed to produce nie, a blade being retempered would crack or warp out of shape? Unless I don't know what nie looks like I see patches along the hamon and a lot up in the boshi.

 

mike

[mike yeon]

I'd also note that since the blade is o'suriage, the presence of a mizukage as evidence of a school or smiths that produced intentional mizukage can be ruled out.

 

mike

[Jean]

remember that on this topic we have ruled out "Mizukage sworsmiths" as Horikawa kunihiro and that we are talking about a suriage blade. Mizukage in that way implying retempered blade

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

Mizukage means that the blade has been retempered, if this is the case, can a sword be retempered only on one side?

 

I see what you mean, Jean...

Is there any chance of heating different then intentional re-tempering ?

A fire that affected only the side of the blade exposed to heat,

being the other laying on the floor, possibly even a wet one ?

 

On the other hand, seems to me there are two 45 degree lines defining

an area with different color between two of omogeneous color... :?

[Mark Green]

I don't think this was retempered. Just an old, tired, recut polearm. It did make for a wicked looking wak. Sombody did a bunch of work to reshape this sword. Looks to have some nasty goobs though. Putting that big fat Kissaki on it looks a bit silly to me. That could have been left off.

Mark Green

[Darcy]

Jeez, I never looked at the angle or the higher rez picture. I'm with Grey, looks more like oil not being fully wiped off now that I note those two things.