Fascinating tsuba

[kissakai]

Wasn’t sure whether to put this on the translation or tosogu page but as it was interesting it has been place here

I would like a translation but it was interesting as they are so similar but in different material and mei

Any other comments are welcome as I’ve never seen two tsuba unless one was a copy

 

 

 

1) Cira 1800 by Uchikoshi Hironaga with kao

 

 

 

2) Cira 1800 Awa Shōami Hironaga with kao

 

 

Love the eyes on number 2

 

 

Thanks Grev UK

[Lance]

The mei looks to read Jounsai Hironaga with Kao. (I have to admit I wasn't able to tranlate/read it) but the design looked familliar, and found a nearly identical tsuba with the same mei in the Peabody Museum of Salem) Attached are the images towards the back of the catalog.

 

Regards,

Lance

[Curran]

Ichijosai Hirotoshi with his particular 'bag' kao.

 

--Some old texts read his signature Hironaga. Hirotoshi was considered to be the founder of the Uchikoshi (sp?) subschool of the large Mito school. Had 7 or 8 students? I have no books at present so am just going from memory of his signature: Grev's both look gimei to me. The Peabody 'Hirotoshi' is also suspect. For whatever fashionable reason, this smith was the target for many _added_ signatures.

 

edit: found a file of his authentic signature

See image

[kaigunair]

Very interesting. If I had to guess, I'd think the brass was the original and the iron a possible copy, at least regarding the base plate. Much less fine detail in the iron, and the hair makes it look cast.

 

Looking foward to the more experienced opinions!

[Ford Hallam]

Working in soft metal as opposed to ferrous is like comparing oil paint to water colours. As to the differences in mei....check your own signature year on year. Does anyone really think the very finest Japanese artist metalworkers of the past were insensitive machines?...

 

Look at the art, the skill, sensitivity and expression exhibited in the making.....then the mei/label' will be perfectly evaluated. To clarify, if the work/art is mediocre or dull then it matters not one jot if the 'mei' is right or not....Tsuba are not great or important because of the mei that they bare, but because the artistry is exceptional.

 

To focus on only the signature of an original artist suggests to me that the rest of the artwork has been entirely overlooked. If you want to collect art look at art....if you simply need to collect then collect stamps.

 

Edit to clarify; examine closely the first 3 examples in this thread and see if you can recognise any similarities. Now, let's forget about who the maker was, are these good and expressive works?...and does it feel like the same man might have made it....assuming he wasn't a robot?

[Lance]

Since I posted the third example I'll stick my neck out, and say that if all three weren't made by the same person they were at least made by the same "group or studio" using the same methods of inlay and pattern book(? if that's the proper term) The way the lines/shapes are cut, and the flow of the water and cut-out for the cave as well as the expression on the horse's face are a few things that look very similar to me. I don't know if I would be qualified to say exactly what level of quality these display but none of them look to be made as if one was a "copy" of the others. (I do know I'd be happy to have any one of them.)

 

Regards,

Lance

[Ford Hallam]

There you go, Lance You've started to see the work as a connoisseur would. Compare and contrast, and really examine the details and expressiveness of the work.

 

These are all fairly decent pieces and are of the quality one would expect. It's also instructive to compare the way the subject/composition has been treated in both iron and soft-metal.

[docliss]

... and are of the quality one would expect.

Not of Uchikoshi Hirotoshi, surely?

 

John L.

[runagmc]

The one from the Peabody museum looks to be better work to me...

 

The cutaway areas have a much better flow and the characters have a more natural and balanced look to them, also the details of the carving look superior to me...

[Ford Hallam]

Hi John

 

perhaps you're right but I think that from images of this quality seeing the finer aspects of genuine work may be hard. In my experience often poorer work looks better in photos and really great stuff is somehow diminished. Not saying these images are of really great work though

 

This does raise an interesting and important point though. I has to be accepted that not every piece made by a particular artist over the course of their career will be of the same quality. Artists mature in their style (unless they work for the Goto... ) and their ability to express more in their chisel work tends to improve, up to a point. Developing a recognisable and distinct style also takes time and the production of a lot of work 'on the way'.

[Ford Hallam]

Maybe these images will provide a better sense of what the best of his work looks like. What say you Dr John? :-)

 

[Ford Hallam]

and how's this for a superb photo of a mei ? Would that all mei were recorded like this...maybe one day This of off the f/k set above and illustrates perfectly, to my mind, how the workmanship confirms the mei. Superb and beautiful workmanship and a stunning calligraphic mei. No need for papers methinks If this isn't the real thing then it's better. :lol:

 

 

Compared to the fluency of this mei, though, the first 3 examples simply don't compare well at all, do they? His mei do tend to vary quite a bit but they are inevitably fairly powerful calligraphy.

[terminus]

Apologies for reviving this thread, but thought this was valuable enough to share. Here’s a NBTHK papered Hozon tsuba with the exact same design at 7.5x7cm signed Jounsai Hirotoshi.

It’s hard to tell but the other ones seems to be about the same quality as this papered one, just perhaps smaller in size.





Any ideas why the same artist would make so many tsubas of the same exact design? could it have been a school/students? are the others gemei? 

[Curran]

Why would Tomei make so many millet?

 

Ichijosai Hirotoshi did have many students mostly named Hiro_____  that did work in similar style.

[Bugyotsuji]

These are all by Jounsai, Curran. Is he the same person as Ichijosai?

[Curran]

These are Ichijosai Hirotoshi, sometimes called Hironaga in the UK auction catalogs and some European sources.

Late Edo Mito sub-school. He had many students, and was quite popular. This lead to a lot of gimei "Prado" type knockoffs.

 

I've dealt with this guy and his students so much over the past 20+ years, that I can spot them a mile away.

From memory, I think the one in the Peabody Museum collection is also a dud or not quite right. For Hirotoshi here, I usually just look at the Kao and form a judgement whether or not it is correct before I even bother hitting the signature books. His workmanship is decent in detail and materials, so if I find the workmanship a bit lacking in hand and the Kao doesn't look right- odds are not good.

 

Attached is one I sold in Bonhams in 2013.  https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/21404/lot/1090/?category=list

I was willing to sell it to a NMB member here for $2500, but he kept trying to knock the price down and work in trades with tsuba I couldn't possibly want.

[Argument for just putting it in Bonhams. I have another 10 tosogu I intend to sell in the next year and would have put in Bonhams 2020, but Covid-19 scuttled that.]

 

If I have made any mistakes about Ichijosai Hirotoshi + kao, feel free to correct me from a Markus Sesko source.

It has been a while since I have dealt with this school and mentally accessed it.

 

____________________________________________________________________________________________________

[[edit... I didn't realize how old this thread was. I'm sorry Dr. L is gone. I also see I already posted much of this info before.]]

[terminus]

Thanks for providing your wealth of experience again Curran! I have noticed papered examples of Hirotoshi's kao, that large circular streak at the end seems to be rather "thick/bold" .

I'll be looking forward to your sale next year then! 

 

[Curran]

Hi Tony,   --If any are left by then, I hope NYC area has recovered so well that I can turn them over to Jeff O. with my own hands.

I'd trade my entire collection if it would allow us to be back there.

[Bugyotsuji]

Post #2 and the paperwork in post #13  both discuss "Jounsai", Curran. I was however unable to find such a Kinko.

 

As to the Ichijosai that you suddenly mention in post #14 above, I have some photos of his work, but I had dismissed them as someone else.

 

This is why I asked you if they are the same person.

[Curran]

Post #2 and the paperwork in post #13  both discuss "Jounsai", Curran. I was however unable to find such a Kinko.

 

As to the Ichijosai that you suddenly mention in post #14 above, I have some photos of his work, but I had dismissed them as someone else.

 

This is why I asked you if they are the same person.

 

Haynes  01415.0   (page 293 of Volume I)

N:  Bunshichi, Enzo, Ichijosai, (and) Jounsai, Unkikudo.

Haynes also has variations of the rather distinct kao. They would include both.

 

My opinion is to agree with Haynes.

I have long regarded the one published in the Museum Catalog in post #2 to be suspect, but Tony's in #13 is papered.

[Spartancrest]

https://www.jauce.https://www.jauce.com/auction/n420858425   A very poor cast example at a ridiculous price.

[Spartancrest]

There is a very nice example in the Worcester Museum, the dimensions are 75mm x 70mm not much other information from the museum site but I think the pictures speak for themselves.

[terminus]

14 hours ago, Spartancrest said:

There is a very nice example in the Worcester Museum, the dimensions are 75mm x 70mm not much other information from the museum site but I think the pictures speak for themselves.

I really like the carving on this one. Defined yet soft. Seems like it's an utsushi of the Jounsai ones. What does the mei say? 

[Spartancrest]

Unryôsai Hiroyasu active ca. 1825 ? 

This example from the Inverclyde Council [not as well executed, I would judge]

"An eighteenth century Japanese swordguard or tsuba. Its is made of yellow bronze and is decorated with a scene showing an elderly figure following a bullock being led across a river by an oni. Signed by Hiroyasu. - 1981.65 - © McLean Museum and Art Gallery, Greenock"

Obviously the person describing the scene did not know of 'Shoki' and can't tell a bullock from a horse!

[Bugyotsuji]

東都住　To-to Ju (living in the eastern Miyako, i.e. Tokyo)

弘奏　花押   Hiroyasu +Kao

[Kurikata]

So many Hiroyoshi with different Kakihan as in the previous exemples !😅. What is real, what is gimei? The Hiroyoshi ,I purchased on this site to an honorable member some years ago  has a different Kakihan .... Mine looks legimate considering my documentation and other exemples in museums (https://art.thewalters.org/detail/32601/tsuba-with-legendary-figures-by-the-seashore/) .Probably different students adopting the same name ?

[Spartancrest]

Just a picture save before it is lost, of the poor casting from post [ 6/08/2020 ]

The seller was wanting 30,000 yen. You will notice there is no oni and the area otherwise undecorated in all the other examples has had a pine tree put in, Shoki has lost his applied face entirely.

[Shugyosha]

I think I sold the tsuba to Bruno. A classic case of how one's taste evolves over time - when I sold it, it didn't do anything for me as it seemed a bit twee, but now it would be a keeper.

 

At the time I sold it I felt it was genuine based on the quality of the work and the kakihan matched one recorded in Haynes (if I remember correctly).

 

[Kurikata]

On 28 août 2020 at 9:06 AM, Shugyosha said:

I think I sold the tsuba to Bruno. A classic case of how one's taste evolves over time - when I sold it, it didn't do anything for me as it seemed a bit twee, but now it would be a keeper.

 

At the time I sold it I felt it was genuine based on the quality of the work and the kakihan matched one recorded in Haynes (if I remember correctly).

 

 

John, yes indeed I purchased this tsuba to you and more renctly I succeeded to get together this tsuba with a kozuka , same technic, same school, same topic,thanks to another estimated NMB member. Where are the Kogai, F/K and menuki ?😛