No hope for this tsuba?

[Mantis dude]

Hi all,

I came across this ebay auction and would have loved to have seen it in its glory days. The question is there any help for it? Any of you that know me, know that I love praying mantis themed fittings and this is an unique depiction- too bad the mantis is worn. Thanks.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/330993555917?ss ... 1438.l2648

[Marius]

Ken,

 

this is a bad tsuba in a bad condition. Of course, it can be restored, but there is no way to fix the poor workmanship.

[kusunokimasahige]

This one is far nicer :

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Japanese-Tsuba- ... 3555917%26

[Brian]

Henk-Jan,

What on earth are you on about?

Ken collects praying mantis themed fittings. How is the one you posted relevant in any way besides the fact that it is a random tsuba in better condition?

 

Brian

[Geraint]

Come on Brian, I'm sure you know the famous Japanese legend of the praying mantis searching for the flaming pearl?

[Brian]

Ah yes....similar to the story of the dragon who stood in front of an oncoming carriage/wagon wheel and bravely stood his ground :lol:

 

Brian

[kusunokimasahige]

Sorry Brian, my bad. The main reason I posted it was that it constituted better workmanship as far as I could see.

 

Nothing to do with Praying Mantiss themes indeed.By the way, I wonder which one of the insects on that specific tsuba looks like a praying mantiss anyway.

 

[Peter Bleed]

What is the problem here? If I were attracted to this motif, I'd feel that it is interesting - if mebbe a bit elemental. It certainly is a "working" tsuba, and terribly dirty. But with cleaning (which will take time and cost some money), I feel this would be a collectible guard. What am I missing? Is the "dirt" too obviously new? Is there a reason the abuse seems concentrated on the surface and not the mimi? Am I trying too hard?

Peter

[Marius]

  Peter Bleed said:

Am I trying too hard?

 

Sorry Peter, yes

 

Just look at the sloppy nanako, the abysmal quality of the inlaid insects, the. I really feel I should not point out something that is so obvious. You may want to have a look at some really good tsuba of that type - you will see the difference. Just an example (one of many):

http://www.nobbly.com/collections/tsuba ... cn1798.jpg

[watsonmil]

Dear Peter,

I must agree with Mariuszk on this one. The insects are childlike in their execution with some inlay not only badly worn, ... but also missing. The sekiigana in the unplugged hitsu-ana actually has droplets of solder appearing on the join. The fact Peter, as you have pointed out that the abuse as you say is concentrated on the surface rather than the mimi is a puzzle ?? Other than being terribly dirty, ... most of the inlay is in relatively good condition. It makes me wonder if the decorated mimi was added at a later date, ... as in my eyes at least it is of a higher ( somewhat ) quality of workmanship than the rest of this tsuba. I doubt even Ford Hallam could restore this tsuba, ... nor would he want to.

 

... Ron Watson

[Peter Bleed]

Mariusz

 

I'm sorry, but I think we are not addressing the same question. Is this a great tsuba? Indeed, it is not. Is this a piece that is representative of a style, manner, or motif that is worthy of collectors' attention - for a hundred buck? My answer to the question that opened this thread is that I think there is "hope for this tsuba."

Peter

[Mantis dude]

Hi all,

 

I will chime back but first an important lesson so you all can send me mantis items: how to recognize a praying mantis on nihonto:

Heads are usually triangular in shape and then antennae come off of that. Bees and/wasps can actually have the exact same shape head so you have to look at the body. A bee/wasp body will almost always have the thorax (bottom part of body) pointing down or bent in some fashion while a Mantis will be relatively straight. Mantis have wings although they are usually displayed against the body. The third identifier and can be a big determiner of mantid vs. grasshopper/other insect is the claw hooked of the mantis. Grasshoppers will have front legs touching the ground, mantis will have those front deadly "legs" raised in some form. The mantis on the guard is 12 oclock on the first pic. The lower body curves around as if a seppa was underneath it.

 

I think there are 2 different evaluations going on for this piece and the arguments are getting blurred in some posts. Condition of the piece which is obviously crap and as Mariusz has stated the execution for the piece. As you guys know I have based my collecting around this one insect. I haven't see a piece like this so I am intrigued for that reason alone. There does seem to be some representations of mantids and other insects in a more comical or kitchie way for lack of better descriptor. I have seen enough to think this is a stylistic thing. So I am trying to picture this tsuba before it was trashed. The nanako reminds me of some sukashi guards I have seen (they were discussed one time) which was most likely country smith work. I don't know the answer to this but it might be an apple oranges thing comparing it to a formal wear piece that was posted. By the way where did that pic come from? Of course I love the formal one and would love to own it. I look for all types of examples. I am curious if things like the solder from someone mucking with it later? It is so hard to look at a piece when it is trashed. But as I stare at it more which I didn't do as much when I first saw it- the bodies of the insects themselves isn't very crisp wonder if they were cast? It is not uncommon for me to see the same depiction on guards which I associate with lower quality work (although not always) so having not seen it just raised my eyebrows.

Thanks for comments.

Ps. I added a nice tsuba just to show I know what a nice formal tsuba can be.

[kaigunair]

Hi Ken,

 

Looks like the verdigris could be possibly cleaned off but the insects themselves are pretty worn down, as do parts of the nanako/circle punch groundwork. I would think that would be very difficult to repair, if not expensive. Looks like this one has lived a hard life. I totally understand the interest in collecting anything that fits within your theme....I'd feel the same way about examples with my family kamon.

 

I'd be more concerned about/ I am wondering if this is kitch or country work or more modern work artificially aged? One aspect I'd be interested in knowing about is in regards to the fern like leaf at the 6 o'clock (or 3 o'clock per the sideway orientation). It has the gold coloring applied even in the areas between the leaves. I'm thinking construction was a separate piece and applied onto the main tsuba plate. If so, is the manner in which this was done indicative of edo/meiji hamamono-type pieces or is this indicative of chinese fakes?

[Marius]

Gents,

 

to be blunt - I don't think this tsuba is worth discussing. It is not a Chinese copy, but the quality is very bad, the fukurin is a later addition, the condition is bad.

 

@Peter

this tsuba is hardly collectible unless you collect trash. A hundred bucks is better spent on books. Of course anyone can collect what he/she deems collectible.

[kusunokimasahige]

Thank you for that great explanation about depiction of Praying Mantisses on tsuba Mantis Dude !

 

Did help !

 

The formal tsuba I posted was/is also on ebay. I came across it when looking around for tsuba on there being amazed at the level of junk which is posted these days with high prices. I even saw some fakes advertised as real ones. The formal one with the flaming pearls looked (in my eyes) to be a very nice one for under 400US$. I posted it because I found the workmanship a big difference with the Mantis one you posted. The last one you posted is gorgeous by the way.

 

KM