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Posted

Very nice. We can only assume that these will be for sale. As such, the rules dictate the proper place to post them is in the "for sale" section, where they can be studied just as easily.

Posted

No doubt. But posting pictures of merchandise is advertising and belongs in the for sale section, at least that is how the rules read and it is what others are told. I see no reason why they can't be enjoyed there as well, do you?

Posted

well, I guess this is a dual item, so I'll ask Brian, what should I do? I just posted it for people to study, not as an advertisment for sale, but they might be for sale at the show - I haven't decided yet, I just got them last night. I'll refrain forom further post until I can hear from Brian what to do it doesn't matter to me where to post, so it is ok to cancel this one.

Posted

What an interesting theme of snowflakes. Was this a pretty old and recurring theme throughout tosogu? I was reading recently in a book about the Rimpa artist Sakai Hoitsu that there was a famous daimyo who did a somewhat thorough study of snowflakes. I disremember now the name, but I wondering if this could have been made for that family? Will look up the name later tonight...

Posted
... I see no reason why they can't be enjoyed there as well, do you?

 

I believe that posts in the for sale section get deleted after a while. High quality pics on piece like these are really useful for neophytes like myself. I've often been redirected to the NMB after doing various goggle search to posts which are several years old; the ones with the original pics still attached are the most helpful. Posts with pics and info like this one help to enhance the NMB tosogu section. I can see a whole can of worms being opened up here which doesn't need to be and will only serve to reduce, not increase the usefulness of the forum....

Posted

Ok..here's the deal.

Items that are purely for sale belong in the for sale section. Those however, are deleted when sold, or after a few months.

Items that may be for sale, but are being posted to encourage discussion, debate and education, are welcome in their respective category discussion sections ..such as this one.

Mike has posted items like this before which have led to genuine and spirited debate, and he hasn't shied away from the fact that by posting them, we can post both good and bad comments and he runs the risk of people challenging signatures or workmanship. In the past, he saw that sometimes the comments weren't always in favour, but if he (or anyone) is willing to take that chance, and is also willing to do a bit of a write-up on the item however brief, in order to educate us...then I am happy to entertain posts like this.

Using common sense, we can see what items are purely commercial and which ones are stimulating learning. In this (and past) cases...I am glad for the chance to both see and discuss some higher class items that most of us here won't come across where we live.

Surely we can't expect people to not post anything that they might consider selling.....and can't expect dealers to abstain from posting any items since they are usually for sale.

If anyone has a counter point (yours are noted Chris) they are welcome to pm me for consideration...but Mike, these items are welcome here (and encouraged) as long as you allow comments, and give us a bit of info on the item/school sometime in the discussion.

 

Hope this clarifies.

 

Brian

Posted

Vote that such posts should stay here, especially on higher aesthetic items.

These tsuba are popular work of the school, and I've always loved them. Seen them in shakudo, brass, silver, and copper.

I've seen one or two signed Shakudo ones. Never seen them signed in other metals.

 

However, this is the first time (& possibly last) I've seen a daisho.

Signed daisho makes it even more rare.

 

I had the chance to buy one of these in brass at a fairly decent price last year. Went to get the money, and came back- someone else came along and offered $50 more for it and took it. That will teach me to say "I'll buy it, let me get the cash", rather than "Okay, I'll be back". My own fault :rant: and not that of the seller :beer: .

Posted

Dear Curran,

The time to buy a piece is when you first see it PERIOD. Someone with your experience and taste is unlikely to make a mistake, ... and you can bet someone is standing there just waiting for you to set it down. You are also somewhat forgiving ... let me qualify that, .. to say that if you knew the dealer and he knows you, ... for him to sell the object because someone offered $ 50.00 more shows me a dealer with poor ethics. The proper thing to have done would have been to hold the item and then resell after an hour or so if you did not come back. I've done this many times for customers I know because I know their intentions without spelling it out. Don't know if I have come across the way I intended, ... but you get the picture.

 

Dear Mike,

I'm glad once again that Brian in his wisdom has made a fair decision. To me at least I echo Curran's thoughts that such an interesting set should be posted in this section where it will and should generate study both now and in the future. A rare set. Thank you for posting.

 

... Ron Watson

Posted

Brian,

 

this is a good and wise decision, and I am thankful for the opportunity to see and study items of a class I cannot hope to come across!

I think probably many if not most of the NMB members will be happy about it!

Posted

Ok..let's discuss the item now, and less discussion about discussions ;)

Lovely set...can we see the other side?

I always wonder how people were able to depict snowflakes back then since they would have had a magnified view of them and wouldn't know each is distinct? :?:

Then again....are they snowflakes?

 

Brian

Posted

OK, just like I said, not a big deal either way for me. Not my forum, I'm only a guest

OK, so a little info - yes snowflakes, finely finshed shakudo not well taken in the pic, so i said that anyone who comes to the show can see them in person if they are out at he time to see the rich shakudo color. a tidbit of note : Not sure howmanmy here know this, but here we go - Ichijo signed with the Ichijo name when working in the traditional Goto style of soft metals, but used Hakuo when signing on iron pieces that are not part of the Goto tradition.

see you all at the show!

Mike

Posted

Of course the purpose of the forum is to educate and share knowledge. I am all for that. Dealer items that are for sale or likely to be for sale, such as this set, can surely be posted in the "for sale section", with a price, as well as in the regular forum. I think it should go without saying that posting these "for study", rather than as simply a "sale alert" or ad, should mean that some educational content is included. If the item is from one's collection and not for sale, then making that clear avoids the conflict.

Posted

I understand your point chris, thats why it was worded accordingly

 

Ichijo Daisho set, shakudo does not take well to pics, please see this set at the sf show to study.

 

no price, no mention of any sale oriented info at all, is that wrong? If so then yes I can change the posting option, like I said, not a big deal, it was just for education and sharing.

Posted

Also, at shows such as the SF show, we encourage people to study the select items that are good examples rarely seen for study, they are not expected to buy them. As a member of the NBTHK, I like to help collectors learn, and with some of the great examples that we have in inventory at times, they are also great examples to learn and study from. Yes sometimes they are for sale, but sometimes they are not. But a good example is a good example and any chance that someone has to see , study and learn shouldn't care if the item is for sale or not. I study items all the time in shops in Japan, it is a great opportunity. But like I stated earlier, this is not my forum, and I will listen to any decision and rules. No problem! If we have the time,and any members of the NMB would like some info for study on any item on our table, they are welcome. I will be posting more items and news on our Facebook page for people to enjoy.

Posted

When a dealer posts items, if they are only for study, it might help to just say upfront "this is not for sale, it is for study." I think it is only natural for people to assume, sans this disclaimer, that an item posted by a dealer is a sales item. And as we all know, sales items, even those for study, should be posted in the sales section with a price.

 

Additionally, when posting something "for study", rather than as a sales alert, I think it also only natural for people to expect some information on the item- what makes it special/interesting/rare or otherwise worthy of study.

 

And by all means, do not take this personally. This has been the standard here for a long time. I don't think it is asking too much to see that it is applied equally to everyone...

 

Thanks for sharing these quality items.

Posted
post-2602-14196875360311_thumb.jpgPic of iron tsuba with "questionable" mei of Goto ichijo........for a better gimei it should have had a Hakuo mei instead, so most likely this work was an inferior student work unsigned, later someone added the mei
Posted

Dear Pete, Mike, et al,

I have found in a Japanese book of mine, .... what I believe is the Japanese document from which the artist Ichijo copied the exact snowflakes pictured on his tsuba. Unfortunately I cannot read Japanese, so will leave it up to someone else to do the caption translation.

... Ron Watson

post-1782-14196875364041_thumb.jpg

Posted

It is dated but using the zodiac system which makes it impossible to know the exact date without further info (as it repeats so we don't know which cycle this is)...

 

Done at Osaka castle....

 

Document from Hokaido University's collection.

Posted

Dear All,

The microscope pictured with the diagram of the snowflakes appears to me to be early to mid 1800's if that is any help. I can carry on a basic conversation in French, and can read French fairly well, ... but try to decipher Kanji as my old Japanese friend used to say for me was a hopeless task.

I envy those of you who can. It would have been a great boon to my studies.

... Ron Watson

Posted
The microscope pictured with the diagram of the snowflakes appears to me to be early to mid 1800's if that is any help. I

Is anyone (more) familliar (than me obviously) with the history of when magnfying glasses were first used in Japan? For example did they arrive with European traders or did thy already have them? I've always wondered if the introduction of optical-quality glass helped lead to the innovation of the fine detail work of the Goto and other schools but never really came across anything specific.

 

Regards,

Lance

Posted

This might help: http://home.europa.com/~telscope/tsjapan.txt

 

I would imagine they came with the Portuguese in the mid-1500's. If you take a telescope apart you have the lens necessary to make a magnifyer (or microscope later on). This is also informative: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optics

 

I have never heard of the Japanese having optical glass prior to the European introduction. They also brought the glass reflective mirror.

 

There was a jump in fine craftsmanship after lens were introduced, which would make sense. I am not aware of specifics but it can be seen when comparing pre-Edo and Edo works as finer details were possible.

Posted

About the daimyo I mentioned earlier, it was Doi Toshitsura (1789-1848, Lord of Koga domain 1822-44). Seems to indicate he had access to a microscope during the early 19th century.

This thread is quite old. Please consider starting a new thread rather than reviving this one, unless your post is really relevant and adds to the topic..

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