Kogai with double mon

[Ron STL]

Does anyone care to comment on the use of two mon when displayed on fittings or a koshirae? I realize it is very difficult if not impossible to pin down a mon to a specific family (since there was a time when literally everyone had a mon). It was explained to me that families often had a primary and secondary mon. I was reading in "The Elements of Japanese Design" (p.14) that is was necessary for families to designate a mon as its official mon (jomon) with a supplementary mon (fukumon) being secondary. I'm not sure what can be said about this, but let's see if anyone can expand upon this topic.

 

The kogai (attached) displays two forms of the kirimon. These look to be like the two book examples, also attached.

 

Ron STL

[Antti]

As it says in my signature, I dont know anything about anything, but isnt this the mon used by the Toyotomi clan pre Edo, and by the imperial family?

[Pete Klein]

The owner was a Gemini...

[Henry Wilson]

The use of the past tense suggests that Ron is not with us anymore Pete. :D

[John A Stuart]

A study in itself Ron and as in all cultural things quite complicated at times. I think in this case a secondary mon is a 替紋 kaemon whereas the 家紋 kamon is the family or house crest. Shinto priests would adopt 神紋 kanamon . There are also secondary mon called 加賀紋 kagamon and 洒落紋 sharemon. There is also the unofficial crest called 定紋jomon and this may be a 副紋 fukumon or auxillary mon, any of the non-official crests. There may be any number of reasons for secondary mon, marriage, good fortune, a cadet branch etc. etc. This is how I understand it anyway. John

[Ron STL]

Hey, don't count me out just yet! John, what you wrote is what the design book reads. I'm trying to put together a short article for the JSS/US on a skull motif tanto and this kogai is part of that koshirae. Looks like it would be best to leave the double-mon comments to something general as you put it here. Just trying to avoid saying anything misleading. Ron STL

[kaigunair]

I disremember where I heard/read this, somwhere I was told that a double mon represented the marriage of two families? Maybe on a tanto/wedding style dirk saya. Not sure if that makes sense.

 

Given that the two mon on this kogai seem very similar, the subfamily idea makes more sense. Informative thread!

[Brian]

When did forget become disremember?

 

Brian

[kaigunair]

When did forget become disremember?

 

Brian

 

Good question, I disremember the exact date, but wait a bit, and I'll probably re-remember...

[Toryu2020]

The Taisei Bukan - a whos who of great houses lists in one handy book the mon, yarijirushi, haori and even sail designs of the major Samurai families - All Daimyo listed have at least two mon in combination, some three. Hatamoto and other important persons are listed with only one. This combination is not found in my 1864 edition. In fact the second of the two mon, the one on the left does not appear at all. To me the kogai appears late, so I would say this is either a very minor family or no family at all and just a design element.

 

It is always good to see mon in combination as single mon are even more disrememorable as to their associations...

-t

[Ron STL]

Thanks Tom. The koshirae was papered to late Edo, so that would fit your thinking that the kogai was late. Ron STL