sashikomi/hadori

[george trotter]

Look at the polishes and in many cases the use of acid is evident. You can assume that acid was used in polishing many, if not most blades during the war. Acid is not only used to finish the hamon, but for other things as well. Fujishiro Matsuo once commented that they could polish one Yasukuni-to a day. Acid use by the Fujishiro school is known. Doubtful you could polish a sword a day without it....

Hi Chris,

Yes, I also was thinking that the pressure of large production demand of gunto would extend to pressure on polishing output also, but I thought the Yasukunito might be different....

I looked up the section on polishing in "Yasukunito" (duhh...should have done it earlier) and Kishida sensei reports on the output of polishing at the Yasukuni jinja and it was quite low (see pp.107-108).

According to Tabata kenzo a togishi there from 1939, he said that his teacher could not finish polish more than three blades per month ( his apprentices did the groundwork). When the apprentices graduated and new apprentice polishers entered, the 4 graduates (now doing finishing also) and their teacher could only produce 16 swords/month (about 3 each).

He said by 1941-1944 8 polishers working full-time produced about 30 swords per month about 3.8 each). This is certainly not 1 per day as Fujishiro sama remembers...that would be 240 swords per month (30 each)....he must be talking about some other production source?

3.8 swords each by 8 men per month strongly implies that acid was not used at Yasukuni?

 

I also checked my copy of "Gunto Kumiai Shimatsu")...and it has some of the polishing details of RJT swords? It seems to say (p.55) that hadori is used and on (pp.69-70) that between 5th April 1945 - 24th August 1945 some 11 togishi polished 101 swords. This is about 25 per month or about 2.3 swords per man per month. If I have read the right section (not too good on polishing kanji), this low output certainly suggests that acid was not used here either.

So maybe just the showato gunto and other gendaito by commercial shops etc were acid finished?...not Yasukunito & RJT.

Of course I could be wrong in my reading here....(maybe you could double check me Chris?).

 

regards,

[Bruno]

Since swords were polished with acid since the 30ies, is it reasonable to question their resistance? I am not chemist and don't know how concentred are those acids, but I read here that acid eats the steel inside the blade.

 

Resistance is crucial for an edge weapon.

[george trotter]

Hi Bruno,

Yes that is a mystery...I have never seen a WWII blade with a "rotten" ha...some of the swords I have found have not been out of the saya for 50-60 years and there was no rust...so maybe the acid was VERY weak, and was properly neutralised or washed off before the sword was sold after polishing?

Regards,

[Brian]

Well of course the acid was very weak, and was properly neutralized. I thought that was self evident.

I think we are talking about very small concentrations of acid, and only used to highlight some of the features a little faster and better. I really don't think it was very destructive, and they would know to neutralize it properly.

Not to say acid is desired in a polish, but people are going off like it was 80% nitric painted on with a paintbrush

It was probably around 2% or so and used with fingerstones to highlight the hamon or hada. Not the end of the world I'm sure.

 

Brian

 

Edit to add: We know acid to be a terrible thing in sword polishing because it is the invariable choice of the amateur polisher looking for a shortcut or who doesn't know how to use stones. The use of this by qualified polishers, whilst obviously not preferred, cannot be looked at in the same manner.

[cabowen]

I would bet that the use of acid was wide spread during the war and used on blades at the YJ as well as those made by RJT.

 

As noted, the acid used is not that strong. In any case it is always neutralized with a base solution.

 

Again, it is used for other things besides highlighting the hamon. I am told it helps with roughing up the hada so the stones can cut better, or something to that effect.

[Curran]

Interesting thread. Thank you to all that have participated, with special thanks to Kunitaro-san.

 

I own 4 blades in total:

3 with sashikomi polish (two are old polish > 100 years & 3rd is by Yoshikawa Kentaro c. 1978-84)

1 with kesho polish c. 2000

 

3 are from the Oei period.

This makes for interesting cross comparison study relative to the comments here.

[george trotter]

I would bet that the use of acid was wide spread during the war and used on blades at the YJ as well as those made by RJT.

 

Hi Chris, the polishing output of YJ and RJT was about 3 swords per month per man, are you thinking this was achieved only by using acid?

 

Hi Brian, this acid stuff is all new to me so I hope you understand when I state the obvious that I know less about it than you. We are discussing acid effects as it was raised earlier on this thread in terms of it being "bad for the blade" (members were saying it leads to deterioration in later years)...I was only stating that I had seen no evidence of this later deterioration and was attributing it perhaps to weak solutions of acid and effective neutralisation before sale...self evident really, as you say.

In fact, if you look at it logically, acid does not seem to be harmful or "bad" in any way. It seems to be (or has become) just a variation in the type of polishing techniques. Since it is astronomically widespread (according to members) it must be preferred by both polishers and customers...I say this as, when one goes into a sword dealer in Japan (of buys from him on-line) it is likely that 99% of swords have been polished with acid (according to members) whether hadori or sashikomi...right? The buyers include Japanese buyers also.

Maybe only those Japanese and those nmb members who know their polisher personally (and for whom money is no object) can get an acid free polish...would you agree? and if not, why not ?

We are still trying to get the facts here..as what we are really talking about here is whether we like/dislike WWII period acid treatment or like/dislike modern acid treatment or like/dislike ALL acid treatment.

What do we think?

 

regards,

[cabowen]

I think it is hard to say exactly how many swords per person were polished during wwii as from pictures and what I have heard, most of these polishes were done in an assembly line like factory with division of labor. In other words, swords went through many hands.

 

I think it was in the original Yasukuni article by Fujishiro Okisato in which his father bragged about polishing a Yasukuni blade in a day. I could be wrong as I didn't read this myself, just heard about it from another togi-shi. So take it for hearsay.

 

I do think that whether all togi-shi will admit it or not, acid has become part of the modern polishing process on a wide scale. When handled responsibly, I don't see an issue.

[george trotter]

When handled responsibly, I don't see an issue.

 

That seems to be it in a nutshell Chris.

What started as a perjorative term implying inferior polish now , on examination, seems to be just a step in standard polishing technique.

regards,

[Brian]

George,

You would make a lousy lawyer.

From one extreme to another....you seem to be looking for answers that can't or don't exist. You seem to be attributing things to "most collectors" that have never been said and coming to conclusions that don't follow logically. I take it with you there is no middle ground..things are only black or white, no grey?

 

Brian

[Veli]

This has been a valuable discussion and great learning experience indeed.

 

I am fully aware of my nonexisting knowledge about the art of polishing, but I'd like to explain why I personally feel somewhat negative about acid polishing.

During my engineering career, I have sometimes performed chemical etching on metals and semiconductors. The rate of etching is not uniform on a certain material, but depends also on the crystal lattice type and orientation. Carbon steel is not a single crystal, but contains several types of crystals, the sizes of which are usually measured in micrometers. Now the etching rate depends on how strongly the atoms are bonded into the crystal by electrostatic forces. This bonding force is probably different for martensite and austenite, but more importantly, the force is weakest and the etching rate is most rapid in the boundary areas between crystals, because the metal lattice is least organised in there. Whereas mechanical polishing cannot generate penetrating, narrow, microscopic crevices in the metal surface, chemical etching may do just that. If the depth of these crevices is very small, like a micrometer, they probably are of no consequence, but...

 

Diluting the acid slows down the process and makes it easier to control but does not change the fundaments...

 

 

Just my 2 c...

 

Veli

[george trotter]

George,

You would make a lousy lawyer.

From one extreme to another....you seem to be looking for answers that can't or don't exist. You seem to be attributing things to "most collectors" that have never been said and coming to conclusions that don't follow logically. I take it with you there is no middle ground..things are only black or white, no grey?

 

Brian

 

Hi Brian, would you mind telling us what you see as the real facts?

Thanks,

[Brian]

The real facts, as I see them, is that a very little bit of diluted acid is probably used by many polishers in their secret formula "water" when polishing. Not all polishers, and not all methods. Probably a lot of this was done during the war...and the average person will never know if it was used, as it is likely completely neutralized after.

The facts, as I see them, are that collectors know an "acid polish" as the high contrast etching that amateurs do..and hence see it as a terrible thing (which it is) but this isn't the same thing we are talking about.

We cannot say it is widespread, and we cannot say it is accepted by the collectors..since we will not likely know if and when it was used.

It will not be done if it is ultimately harmful to the sword down the line.

We cannot question what the polisher uses any more than we can specify what he has in his nugui or how he polishes. We just have to choose our polisher according to his reputation and examples of his work.

If I like the end result, I don't mind too much how he got there.

 

Brian

[almeister]

Good points George !

For those of us who have paid for a polish ( @ approx. $100 per inch ) with an average katana @ around 25 - 26 inches + freight & handling fees etc .. - I'm sure we would like to know it's had the blood/sweat/tears put into it as per the old days & not just completed in one day !

How do we know - we don't !

We are now in an electronic era/environment & with everyone & everything , there can be easier ways out .

Old school is the best , I'm sure there are a few left who practise this way, however it's all to easy for some to adapt to current trends , if it saves time & creates productivity /profit

Therefor perhaps , the issue needs to be discussed in depth with acting person/dealer before submitting blade for polish - could be the most sound advise - is one way of looking at it

& even then we may not know what lay within the final product

A long time ahead in the future may disclose any hidden nasties

Cheers , AlanK

[cisco-san]

... now I wonder if in the past Kazuuchi-mono blades have been polished with acid (secret water) as well?? Because at this time many many blades were needed in a short time

 

edit: typo

[george trotter]

Hi Brian, thanks for sharing your opinions.

 

I have to say, the OP was about sashikomi/hadori, but considering the range of comments and the number of questions regarding acid treatment, that topic has been got away from.

I have been overwhelmed by this acid treatment topic...I only knew of a certain ebay seller who uses it...other than him it is all new info to me. Of course, when it was stated that most gunto were polished this way (due to need for quick finish), I was alarmed as I had seen no sign of it in YJ and RJT swords I have handled (although I do have some of the "quicker" finish hadori polishes from WWII).

This seemed at odds to me in the stringent rules laid down in the production of YJ and RJT swords in 1933-1945...I never thought of such swords being "rushed through" the polishing system by using acid so maybe it means that the "acid water" system was a known and accepted part of polishing?. After checking published facts in "Yasukunito" and "Gunto Kumiai Shimatsu" I have seen (if I read correctly) that the average finish rate for polishers in these two schemes was about 3.0 blades per month...this is quite reasonable per man per month but I don't consider this as "rushed through" (any thoughts on this pruduction number per man?).

The fact that I can see no evidence of acid harm today (still in WWII polish) suggests the polishers knew what they were doing and it was very carefully done.

 

Because of Japanese polishers secrecy with their techniques the question of whether it is widespread today depends on who you speak to (members have said here it is used and it is common) but, as it seems there are no ill effects and virtually none of us can tell anyway, then as Brian says ...if the end result is good, who cares how it gets there.

While the Kumiai says hadori was used, I consider most RJT that i have seen as mostly sashikomi polish.

Since it seems that acid is probably used in both types of polish and it has not harmed the blades, I still say...long live sashikomi.

 

 

About getting value for your polishing dollar today...I suppose it comes down to the level of one's knowledge of polish and how well one knows his polisher.

regards,

[Guido]

I disagree with Brian, George: you would make *a heck of a lawyer*!

[cabowen]

I think Brian has composed a very good summary.

 

One point he mentions is particularly important: acid can be used and abused. Unfortunately, in the hands of amateurs, it tends to be used to make up for lack of proper technique and knowledge. Usually with poor results. When used during the war, it was used to increase production; it is not the only reason most wwii polishes are substandard, but a contribution factor. Today, in Japan, from what I have heard and seen, its use is wide spread. It has become another tool in the box and its responsible use by professional togi should not be a concern. As always, use a professional togi with a good reputation.

 

As far as polishing production during wwii is concerned, I would put more stock in the finished results than what you read in these books. 3 blades a month- who were the polishers? It would take me a year to polish a blade with rather poor results regardless-surely time spent is not always an indicator of quality....

 

WWII era polishes, from say 1940 and thereafter, are rather uniformly poor by today's standards. The later in the war, the worse they are. This is only to be expected. Polishes on Yasukuni blades from the mid to later 1930's are a different story. Things went downhill thereafter.

 

While the rules for YJ and RJT are quite stringent in many respects, they primarily address the materials and construction, not much on finishing. Additionally, there were other things done that were not exactly traditional, but they greatly increased the production rate. Are you aware George that Yasukuni-to were made using an oil bath for yaki-modoshi (tempering)? Why? because it was fast, consistent, and exact. You won't find that in the Yasukuni book, at least as far as I remember...

[george trotter]

Hey Guido, I'm pretty sure if I spoke nicely Brian would see things my way...

[drdata]

late to the thread's acid turn. Interesting as others have noted.

 

I recall reading somewhere, but cannot relocate, that the nuigi solution was slight acidic. From what I could tell, iron oxide itself is not acidic, but perhaps its mixed with the secrete water... I would love to visit a polisher shop with my digital ph meter.

 

 

Regards

[kunitaro]

Nitric acid treatment is just a tip of iceberg.

There is hundreds of treatment as well as neutralizing treatment which are almost all secret by each school and each polisher. (maybe some are good, some are not)

and Meiji Period is that Japan's industrial revolution, so, after Meiji period those study developed a lot.

They (all craftsmen) are constantly researching and developing new idea, we never know what they know today.

I believe that they were doing all the time with what they have in Edo period as well.

we can recognize low level work, but, we can not recognize master work....But,. experienced polisher can see it. so, there is some way to see it.

Artist doesn't need to tell his secret....

so, we should train our eyes,

 

A story,,,

There was a master Sashikomi polisher in a past, around 1950-1960'.

He was famous only in the professional field. He is the last master of Sashikomi polish. He polished a lot of blade. But, all of the blades which he polished were re-polished with in a few years. because, 2nd or 3rd owner didn't understand the master work, they thought the polish is not good. so, the blade is re-polished with new fake sashikomi or kesho/hadori polish.... after him, nobody do real sashikomi anymore...

if you ask any old master polisher in Japan, all of them knows this story, said my teacher.

 

from this story,,,,I think that the collector is also responsible to understand the art of polish, because, craftsmen try to make what collector wants,

Craftsman's level is depend on collector's level.

 

In Samurai period,,

People were viewing a sword under candle light.

After Meiji period,　electric light bulb, Polisher has same light at his workshop,

Now, I heard that some new people are viewing a sword with fluorescent lamp, so, some polisher try to do his work under same light,,,

 

mmm, a bit out of topic ???

[Derek]

Kunitaro San,

thank you for your amazing insight. (And your willingness to share it)

 

Derek

[GregD]

Nugui is the process,Kanahada is made from the slag that comes off the sword as it is forged,ground into powder,mixed with oil and filter-pressed through washi paper onto the sword.The same is done with Ji-teko(naturally occurring loedstone or magnetite)and iron oxide.The visual results of what the "ji" will look like will depend on how well you filter any one or combination you may make.Another less aggressive kanahada(takes longer but will not "wash out" the grain boundaries that are brought out by the stones)is made by saving the residue that forms while using hazuya fingerstones.It gets rinsed off the blade,left to dry,mixed with oil and also pressed onto the sword through the filter paper as done with the others.

[Chishiki]

Hi all,

 

I think a top grade sashikomi polish is every bit as good as a top grade hadori polish, positives and negatives of each already noted. Almost all the swords that have been displayed in the Art Gallery of New South Wales are in sashikomi polish done by a Mukansa level togishi. It was Colin who sought out a polisher who could do correct sashikomi.

 

The preference for this polish is just that, a preference. Between sword collectors the appreciation of a sword is the same regardless of the style of polish as long as it's a top grade polish and you know how to view the sword correctly. BUT when showing a sword to someone not experienced in using an incandescent light globe and a certain amount of neck twisting then the sashikomi is better. The swords in shashikomi display better behind glass..

 

A great number of swords we see on dealer sites are lower quality budget hadori and I think this is where the water or should I say the ‘hamon’ starts to get murky. Lower quality polishes range from competent down to terrible, and lower grade hadori polishes are dreadful.

 

Is hadori used to conceal flaws/problems in swords? Yes it is.

 

The point made about sashikomi not enhancing the jihada as well as hadori inspired me to quickly take a few pics of two swords in shashikomi. I used my cell phone so the pics aren’t great but I think show why people should be careful how they interpret comments on this point. I don’t see that the presentation of hada in either of these two swords is lacking because they are in sashikomi. Are there polishers in Japan who can do correct sashimomi? Yes there are. Don’t dismiss this style of polish as inferior.

 

Mark

[cabowen]

 

The point made about sashikomi not enhancing the jihada as well as hadori inspired me to quickly take a few pics of two swords in shashikomi. I used my cell phone so the pics aren’t great but I think show why people should be careful how they interpret comments on this point. I don’t see that the presentation of hada in either of these two swords is lacking because they are in sashikomi. Are there polishers in Japan who can do correct sashimomi? Yes there are. Don’t dismiss this style of polish as inferior.

 

Mark

 

Show us some pictures of swords with tight hada in sashikomi. Something you can't see from across the room....perhaps then my comments that hadori (done well) brings out the hada better will make more sense....

[george trotter]

Nitric acid treatment is just a tip of iceberg.

There is hundreds of treatment as well as neutralizing treatment which are almost all secret by each school and each polisher. (maybe some are good, some are not)

from this story,,,,I think that the collector is also responsible to understand the art of polish, because, craftsmen try to make what collector wants,

Craftsman's level is depend on collector's level.

I think these comments by Kunitaro san are correct...also interesting are the comments on sashikomi and hada by Mark and Chris.

 

I think the acid question is now well discussed...it is done and seems to have been done for a long time and unless very badly done is of no threat to the blade...it was alarming at first because I (we?) did not know of it before.

On polish...much of what we have been agreeing/disagreeing on about polishing itself comes back to collector knowledge and preferences. To me, being from the early post-war collector period, it was always sashikomi because essentially, it shows the hamon/hada in equal emphasis and importantly, the hamon in its true outline. What I don't understand is how/why the shift away from sashikomi came about. The reason I cannot understand this (may I express an opinion) is that I collect swords first, rather than polish (I have both types, but prefer to look at sashikomi). So in my logic (sorry Brian :lol: ), if the polish is excellent, it should not be noticeable...it should be invisible...only the true hamon (in all its beauty) and the hada characteristics should be seen...this is what sashikomi does. If the hamon is obscured, has a false outline, and the hada predominates throughout, then it is the polish that is being seen, before the blade...(it is my opinion...please don't send the ninja death squad).To emphasise the minutae of a blade above its overall beauty is a bit like looking at the canvas rather than the the picture (just my opinion).

Did the collector drive the polisher or the polisher drive the collector? Well that is a question we can also ask in the west about artists and art collectors.

About the quality of a polish...I think it depends on the knowledge level of the collector of course...the higher the knowledge, the higher the polish and the more definite the preference then that's what the polisher produces...in this case hadori/kesho. I suppose it is all coming back to what a collector looks for in a blade (or like western art collectors, what he is told to look for).

About hada and sashikomi...I have to admit that in my WWII sashikomi blades the hada is less apparent than in modern hadori polish but does that mean it is a "bad" thing? It is there but it is subdued. As the sashikomi does not show any forging flaws I know the blades are well forged, so I can concentrate on the hamon and sugata and just know the hada is well done. One or two show almost muhada, but as hada IS visible in places I know that it is traditional forging and I also know that WWII hada is much tighter than what came before...so that is a WWII forging characteristic...polishing can evolve but hada can not? It is clear that in cases where hada is quite coarse it is clearly visible in sashikomi...but it is only a "good" thing if the collector likes his blade to look like a piece if bark :lol: (only my opinion)...just joking about the bark Mark.

If I have any criticism of the WWII polish it is that (as Chris said), possibly due to WWII "pressure" the foundation is a little uneven in some swords (as my "uneven" two are by the same smith I suspect the fault was they had an "average" polisher in their service)...while it bugs me, I will not re-polish as the polishes are still in good condition.

In the end I prefer sashikomi for the above reasons and in the end it all depends on what we look for in a blade. If I were to repolish a blade I would seek out a polisher capable of doing sashikomi and polish it in a degree appropriate to the period. If I thus disagree with the hadori lovers does this mean my "knowledge" of polish is low??

I HOPE this helps...

Edit: typos.

PS I wonder if the use of hammere machines in WWII explains the tighter hada?

[Danocon]

They (all craftsmen) are constantly researching and developing new idea, we never know what they know today.

 

 

This is key. Tools are tools. Every artist/craftsman makes his/her own decisions how to use the tools available and how to present/sell/preserve their art.

For what it's worth-I remember an unusually candid conversation after many glasses of Rebel Yell (yes, you heard me correctly) whiskey in Dallas during the 80's.

Acid was not left out of the conversation. The next day, in the sober light of morning-that conversation never happened.

 

This really changes nothing. Know what you are looking at and know who you deal with. I myself do not know enough to comment on the use of acid and the resulting effects, but do not begrudge a master his tools. Is nihonto only nihonto if no power tools are used in the making?

[almeister]

George ,

Thank you for initiating this interesting/informative post !

Other members ,

Thank you for your comments/opinions/feedback/facts !

This is an invaluable thread as we are now all more aware of what "MAY BE " involved in the polish of our blade/s

ie : If a prospective buyer/senior collector/dealer condemns our blade as an acid/partial acid polish ( provided the blade has been professionally polished ) - we at least can be prepared for negative comments as such & know how to counterpunch it - whereas before , we would consider this a "brutal insult/false accusation " if the polish had been professionally done !

Would I consider having another blade polished , Yes !

"If it's the way things are ... then , it is what it is ! "

( BTW George - Sashikomi is nicest - as you know! )

Cheers , AlanK

[cabowen]

George, we keep going around in circles on this....

 

Hadori does not obscure anything when viewed correctly. The hadori is superficial- at the right angle, it disappears. Hamon, hataraki, as well as kizu, are fully visible. I have said this at least three times now in this thread- I can not understand why you persist in your claims that hadori "obscures" the hamon....

 

Hadori polish will bring out the jigane in swords that have less prominent hada. You have admitted this yourself in the above posts about your wwii era blades.

 

Hada is a kantei point, an indicator of the smith's skill, and one of the main points in appreciation of the beauty of the blade. I want to see the hada. Perhaps that is not as important an issue for you.

 

On one hand you say:

 

"only the true hamon (in all its beauty) and the hada characteristics should be seen"

 

That is all there is to be seen, so yes, exactly...

 

Then you add:

 

"this is what sashikomi does"

 

No, sashikomi does not fully present the hada, by your own admission:

 

"I have to admit that in my WWII sashikomi blades the hada is less apparent than in modern hadori polish"

 

Hadori polish is seen by many as an improvement over sashikomi for the very reason you have just stated: it can present the hada more prominently. When done correctly, it appears as if the steel has been cleanly cut and you can peer deeply into it. It is not "smeared" the way it appears in most sashikomi polishes. This is hard to describe but easy to see.

 

Again, I have witnessed the transformation in many wwii era blades done in war era sashikomi to modern, hadori. They went from muji to amazing. Again, I prefer to see hada, perhaps not everyone does. You have wondered aloud repeatedly about the raison d'etre behind hadori. This is it. It is the major reason why it has become popular: it brings out in a more complete way all the beauty that is in the sword. That's it, there ain't no more....

 

I think the flies have started to circle this corpse....I have nothing more to say that hasn't been said 3 times already. You keep reaching for a rationale for your personal preference but there really isn't any objective benefit to justify your choice, nor is one needed. If you like sashi-komi, great, it's really ok.....

[Chishiki]

Chris Bowen... Here is an Osaka Shinshinto blade by Masataka in sashikomi polish. (same camera and loc) BTW, if you read my original post I acknowledge that hadori is regarded as superior in bringing out the jihada. Sashikomi is our preference.

 

George Trotter.. . You write like a true scholar, a good discussion. BTW the 1st pics (in original thread) are the Horikawa Kuniyasu, Juyo Token, and a published sword in Japan. The 2nd is an Osaka Shinto katana by Tadashige. (tokubetsu hozon).

 

Mark