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How old might this wakizashi be?

ronin223

By ronin223
in Nihonto

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Marius Grand Master

Marius

Posted
Posted

Matt,

 

one kantei point of doubtful value and you make an attribution of an out-of-polish sword? I envy your self-confidence... :badgrin:

 

@ronin223

 

Please sign your posts with a name (first or last) - that is a Forum rule.

Brian

Brian

Posted
Posted

I think most of that rust wasn't caused by age...but by either exposure to water or fire damage.

Still probably a few hundred years old though. It's been polished down quite a bit over the years...at a wild guess late Koto. The second ana makes us think it was greatly shortened, but not so sure of that in this case, I think it's original length. Don't try any rust removal or cleaning of the tang.

 

Brian

kunitaro Proficient

kunitaro

Posted
Posted

Just my opinion,

When you look at Sugata,

It looks like Ubu blade, because, the shape of Nakago-jiri,

Yes, it is kind of Bizen style.

But, When you look near Ha/Mune-machi, There is no Funbari, Not only Ha side, Mune saide also no Funbari,

Then, when you look at Sugata of the blade,,,, Also, no funbari...which is meaning it is suspicious "O-suriage"...

It is lucky that we can see Hamon at Hamachi (Under the Habaki)

When you see the Hamon, there is no Yakidashi, the Hamon goes straight into Nakago.

So, This blade is suriage,,, maybe the Mekugi-ana near Nakago-hiri is the original hole...

then It is 10-12cm Suriage,,,

When you see the Sugata again adding Suriage parts,

Imagine Original shape,

It looks like 62-63cm a bit Sakizori Katana,

so, we can guess, late muromachi Katate-uchi Katana, cut down to Wakizashi.

furthermore, you need to polish the blade to recognize the school etc,. however, restoration will cost more than its value....

mdiddy Proficient

mdiddy

Posted
Posted

Kunitaro-san,

 

Thanks for sharing your deeper observations - they are very educational. Respectfully, would machi-okuri be another possibility instead of o-suriage to explain your observations?

 

There looks to be an awkward space between the current habaki-moto and the suri dashi. In this space, there also looks to be an extra sabigiwa. If the blade is o-suriage, I do not understand why re-applied yasurime would be left so far short of the habaki-moto or why there is a break in the rust patterns.

 

In this instance, with the nakago-jiri shaped the way it is, the suri dashi location, and the multiple sabigiwa, would it be more likely this blade is just machi-okuri instead of o-suriage?

 

Also, Sue-Bizen yakidashi can be thick suguha extending into the nakago, correct? Ref: http://www.nihonto.ca/yosozaemon-sukesada-2/.

 

I am curious to get your opinion on this.

 

Matt

post-951-14196873957353_thumb.jpg

cabowen Grand Master

cabowen

Posted
Posted

I thought about that too at first but normally the blade is heated to remove the hamon so the steel can be more easily cut and filed. If that is done, then the hamon wouldn't continue on as it does...

kunitaro Proficient

kunitaro

Posted
Posted

Matt san,

 

Good place to look !

The area is called "Togi-dame” 研溜

You can learn the history of the blade a lot from this area.

it is one step higher level of examine.

 

If it is only a few cm machi-okuri,

The position of Mekugi-ana is too high.

When you put Tsuka, Mekugi will touch Fuchi...

(if you see photo of blade with broken tsuka, the position of mekugi ana is right, can not go higher..)

 

If it is only 1 cm suriage, then Yakidashi should remain in the Togi-dame as Chris san mentioned.

 

What do you think ?

post-4263-14196873960335_thumb.jpg

Jacques D. Grand Master

Jacques D.

Posted
Posted

Hi,

 

It looks like Ubu blade, because, the shape of Nakago-jiri,

 

 

I must disagree. Nakago jiri on a suriage nakago can be kiri, kuri-jiri, ha-hagari-kurijiri, even kengyo (Kuwana Gô).

 

 

But, When you look near Ha/Mune-machi, There is no Funbari, Not only Ha side, Mune saide also no Funbari,

 

 

I must disagree. funbari is a feature of very old swords.

 

If it is only 1 cm suriage, then Yakidashi should remain in the Togi-dame as Chris san mentioned.

 

I must disagree, nioiguchi can stop at the level/vertical of the ha-machi (that's pretty common).

 

 

All that i can say based on these photos is :" I see nothing clearly so i can't say anything on that blade excepted it seems pretty tired."

mdiddy Proficient

mdiddy

Posted
Posted

Kunitaro-san,

 

Thank you for the direct response and additional explanation. I appreciate it very much.

 

I think Chris brings up a good point that if the yakidashi remains in the togi-dame then neither machi-okuri nor o-suriage are best options to explain the sword.

 

The sword being suriage by only 1cm could explain the yakidashi but why then take care to fashion the nakagojiri? Why remove such a little amount of the nakago also? And what of the lower mekugi-ana?

 

I agree with Jacques, the blade looks tired, especially at the hamachi - perhaps this could explain the lack of funbari.

 

Still many questions for a tired blade. :)

 

Matt

runagmc Mentor

runagmc

Posted
Posted
I must disagree. funbari is a feature of very old swords.

 

:roll:

That's like saying ko-kissaki is a feature of old swords, or koshi-sori is a feature of old swords. Any sword of any time period can be made with any physical feature... no?

kunitaro Proficient

kunitaro

Posted
Posted

Dear Jaques san,

 

I must disagree. funbari is a feature of very old swords.

 

Is this meaning that you think Sue-koto,Shinto/Shinshinto, Gunto Gendai-to have no funbari ?

 

BTW, Do you know a polisher mr.Kurokawa who lived in France in mid. 80' ?

Jacques D. Grand Master

Jacques D.

Posted
Posted

Runagmc

 

Can you please provide the description of the sword you show ?

 

 

 

 

mariuszk

 

 

I see funbari in this excellent Bizen Yokoyama sword, but I might be wrong:

 

Yes you are, there is no funbari on that wakisashi.

kunitaro Proficient

kunitaro

Posted
Posted

I see clearly Funbari on both Oei and shinshinto Bizen swords.

Oei-bizen, you can see very beautiful Funbari on mune side, and mune side of Nakago,

Ha-side is almost no-funbari, so does Nakago.

so, when you concentrate to see 3 lines (Mune, Shinogi and Ha), you can see how much polished from original.

you can see a bit polished out, but, it is very good condition for the age, and very good polish (Shitaji-togi for sugata)

 

And Yokoyama Bizen wakizashi, you can see strong Funbari also Mune side,

and Ha side, a bit less, so does Nakago side, and can you see it could be 1/2 cm machiokuri ??? see Togidame.

So, That wakizashi is a bit tired,,, You want brand new condtion for Shinshinto,

Tiredness is not only Kizu,

 

who can see ? who can't ?

 

PS: Jaques san, Do you know a polisher mr.Kurokawa who lived in France in mid. 80' ?

runagmc Mentor

runagmc

Posted
Posted
Runagmc

 

Can you please provide the description of the sword you show ?

 

Oei Bizen Yasumitsu, from Ginza Choshuya...

 

Here are two swords to campare funbari... I say both have funbari... descriptions are at bottom of pic... post-2413-14196874266011_thumb.jpg

runagmc Mentor

runagmc

Posted
Posted

They both look pretty straight on to me, Jacques :doubt: ... I could continue to post more examples , but I won't waste my, and everyone else times, since we've already been through this before...

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