Aesthetics lecture wanted

[Veli]

First of all, I confess I am an ignorant barbarian!

Secondly, I confess I find it hard to recognize the quality and aesthetic value of this excellent old tsuba:

http://www.aoijapan.com/tsuba-mumei-unsigned-ko-tosho

If I would see that in a flea market in Yokohama with 10,000 Yen asking price, I would pass it without a second glance, and that worries me. I wonder if one of the NMB's knowledgeable tosogu experts could elaborate on the workmanship and aesthetics of this specific tsuba (or a similar one) so that we uneducated would see the light...

 

Veli

[hxv]

I saw this tusba about 1 hr before Veli posted. I must confess I was scratching my head, too. Kudos to Veli for asking the question.

 

Hoanh

[Baka Gaijin]

Hi Veli,

 

Try these as a starting point:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wabi-sabi

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shibui

 

One word of caution........when you think you understand it, you don't!!!!

 

Cheers

[Justin]

It's old, but I agree with you both. Doesn't do much for me.

[Henry Wilson]

Have a read of this thread:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=13495

 

Sorry about the shameless self plug but it might be of interest.

[Kurikata]

Similar Tsuba at Bonhams in better quality:

http://m.bonhams.com/auctions/17513/lot/3125/

 

Similar in size and .... in price.

 

Not my test personnaly .

 

Enjoy

 

Bruno P.

[Guido]

The (relatively speaking) high price is mainly due to it being unaltered, i.e. having no later added Hitsu-ana, which is rare. As to the aesthetics ...

[christianmalterre]

This Tsuba from Aoi seems to be an great deal!

had to see it closer,think but-i would purchase it if i had not to pay add custom fees...

The asking price is more than "just only" good!

 

(price resulting on it´s rareness Veli-one like this comes estimated on 999 newer ones-not to compare with mass produced Edo stuff)

 

Christian

[Alex A]

Only takes one guy with money to like these old utilitarian tsuba. Boring to some folk, interesting to others. Being genuine, around 500 years old, and in original condition, i can see why he asks the price. Id buy it, if i could afford it. Tsuba made for battle have an appeal.

 

Alex.

[kunitaro]

I think that the price of the tsuba is based on NBTHK Hozon paper which is attributed to KO-Tosho (古刀匠）.

This kind of simple tsuba (just plain disc) are existed since beginning till the end. and they are not much artistic value.

If dare to say, there is 槌目地 (hummered surface and technique of mimi) which is craftsmanship.

 

If NBTHK Hozon said "Tosho （刀匠）" which is Edo period. the price would be 1/3.

 

I assume that most of dealers/experts are doing Kantei as predicting result of Shinsa.

Because, the market is strongly depend on Papers.

 

mr.Mike Yamazaki was saying that "...I was taught that every piece should be judged on its own merits, and by seeing notable great examples, ones eye grows..." at other thread.

It is a strong word.

Knowledge must come from experience.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=16279&start=45

 

 

Regarding "Aesthetics"

The Book of tea by Okakura Kakuzo

http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/tea.htm

"Chapter 5, Art appreciation" is explaining well.

 

The sympathetic communion of minds necessary for art appreciation must be based on mutual concession. The spectator must cultivate the proper attitude for receiving the message, as the artist must know how to impart it.

It is to be deplored that so few of us really take pains to study the moods of the masters. In our stubborn ignorance we refuse to render them this simple courtesy, and thus often miss the rich repast of beauty spread before our very eyes. A master has always something to offer, while we go hungry solely because of our own lack of appreciation.

 

To understand and appreciate "Wabi/Sabi"

we must understand Japanese tea culture.

 

At the time when Teaism was in the ascendency the Taiko's generals would be better satisfied with the present of a rare work of art than a large grant of territory as a reward of victory. Many of our favourite dramas are based on the loss and recovery of a noted masterpiece. For instance, in one play the palace of Lord Hosokawa, in which was preserved the celebrated painting of Dharuma by Sesson, suddenly takes fire through the negligence of the samurai in charge. Resolved at all hazards to rescue the precious painting, he rushes into the burning building and seizes the kakemono, only to find all means of exit cut off by the flames. Thinking only of the picture, he slashes open his body with his sword, wraps his torn sleeve about the Sesson and plunges it into the gaping wound. The fire is at last extinguished. Among the smoking embers is found a half- consumed corps, within which reposes the treasure uninjured by the fire. Horrible as such tales are, they illustrate the great value that we set upon a masterpiece, as well as the devotion of a trusted samurai.

 

 

Practice 茶の湯 (Cha no yu/Tea ceremony) and Study Japanese for reading original books is may be necessary to compete understanding.

 

as we know "If you want to understand Shakespeare, you must read it in English"

 

in fact, Japanese sword dealers and collectors understand books, but not many of them practice Cha no yu in Japan today.

 

Again, "so few of us really take pains to study..." Okakura said 100 years ago.

 

Furthermore,

The tea- masters collected only objects which fell strictly within the measure of their individual appreciation.

I think that we are doing same.

Another common mistake is that of confusing art with archaeology. The veneration born of antiquity is one of the best traits in the human character, and fain would we have it cultivated to a greater extent. The old masters are rightly to be honoured for opening the path to future enlightenment. The mere fact that they have passed unscathed through centuries of criticism and come down to us still covered with glory commands our respect. But we should be foolish indeed if we valued their achievement simply on the score of age.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/tea.htm

[Pete Klein]

Well put Kunitaro san. In your honor:

 

[Veli]

Thank you all, especially Kunitaro san, for the excellent links and great comments! I did not realize unaltered sengoku jidai tsuba were that rare!

 

Veli

[cabowen]

Finding beauty and perhaps even enlightenment in the simple and perhaps mundane is a central concept of zen inspired aesthetics. Ford touched upon this in his mention of utilitarian Korean rice bowls that were adapted to tea use and are revered.

 

Much of what is valued in Japanese art is that which the viewer adds himself. At first, it seems the stimulus is purely tactile, perhaps even visceral, but the best pieces stimulate a response that is cerebral- they are a catalyst. The viewer connects the dots, fills in the spaces, completes the composition. We see this in zen-ga and I think it applies to the appreciation of all "simple" Japanese art. Like a koan to solve, let the mind wander over all the possibilities it presents. Sometimes the value of such a piece is not so much in the piece itself, but rather what it brings out of the viewer. To me, when I see something as simple and utilitarian as this tsuba, and then realize it is 500 years old, it brings the obvious question to mind- why is it something so mundane has survived so long? Clearly it spoke to its owners and has been loved and cared for by generations. What is it saying to you?

 

For me, it brings to mind the famous Basho haiku:

 

 

natsukusa ya

tsuwamano-domo ga

yume no ato

 

summer grasses

of warrior's dreams

what remains...

[Marius]

Contrary to the NBTHK paper - I am not quite sure this is actually a ko-tosho. Seems pretty thick (3.5mm at rim) and looks more like Edo tosho to me.

 

But who am I to judge...

[Pete Klein]

From Wikipedia:

Minimalism describes movements in various forms of art and design, especially visual art and music, where the work is set out to expose the essence or identity of a subject through eliminating all non-essential forms, features or concepts. Minimalism is any design or style in which the simplest and fewest elements are used to create the maximum effect.

 

I believe this tsuba is a good example of an item which has become an example of minimalism, even though it was not designed or intended by the maker to be 'art'. By it's very nature it is just what it is supposed to be -- a tsuba. It has no design elements other than it's purpose, has no ornamentation or alteration. It is pure in form and function, both the nadir and the zenith. Interesting.

 

PS: I was struck by the thickness also but upon some looking about this seems to fall into the acceptable range.

[Brian]

As Guido said...anytime you see an old looking tsuba like this, without any hitsu ana, it is an indication to look closer at it.

Not saying that makes it automatically a good tsuba. But it is a sign that maybe there is something worth investigating. At that point, all the education you have previously done on tsuba, aesthetics and desirability comes into play as the other members have noted.

 

Brian

[Pete Klein]

Here is an example from the most recent Yashima catalog. Note the dimensions and price. This one has TBHozon:

[Steve Waszak]

Some really fine posts in this thread. Thanks especially to Kunitaro, Pete, and Chris... Pete, any further info on that kozuka?

 

Enjoying this thread. Thanks, Veli, for raising the question(s).

 

Cheers,

 

Steve

[kunitaro]

↑ Yashima Catalogue

(They are one of the best Tosogu dealer in Japan.)

 

Description

黒褐色の錆色 Brownish black patina

潤い Uruoi (moisture)

ネットリ Nettori (smooth/stickish?)

変化のある肉置き Divers Niku-oki

Typical ko-Tosho tsuba.

 

However, It is impossible to recognize those description by the photo,

 

To recognize or understand what the meant.

You need to have it in your hand to see, touch, and smell, taste etc..

And You need other example to compare...

 

It has Tokubetsu-hozon paper : Mumei Mumon(no design) Ko-Tosho tsuba.

so, the quality is kind of guaranteed, people can depend on judgement of NBTHK,

and lean from it.

If you have Juyo papered Tosho tsuba, you will be able to find same quality piece from Tokubetsuhozon or hozon tsuba, and make it to Juyo by yourself.

even you have a chance to find one in the flea market.

but, if you have never seen or understanding Juyo quality, you don't know what you are aiming at...

you can not depend on someone's opinion.....

 

Is it make sense ?

[Pete Klein]

Hai. I hope to meet Saito san in Japan at the DTI this October. I have heard many wonderful things about his knowledge and experience.

 

Steven -- just an appropriate item for the conversation I felt. Most likely Momoyama jidai Chadogu. The concept of wabicha encapsulated in kodogu.

[seattle1]

Hello:

When first seen yesterday morning I was rather surprised at the price, however dealers naturally go with the market and in the last few years ko-tosho and ko-katchushi have risen in market appreciation, particularly in the West. "Ko" certainly is the operative term, and with some confusion on the issue, the larger the better seems to rule. Following Sasano (1993) however, pp.28-29, "large" is hardly the determining variable for illustrated there are two thin and fairly small ko-tosho, each with a ko-sukashi device and one with a plugged kodzuka-ana, and described "as the greatest (of) all sword fittings."

As for the Aoi tsuba I believe the key element for appreciation is left out, namely the fact that its obverse seems to be convex, and that makes a world of difference when viewed from above in varying light. For people who should know better, once again proper dimensional information is missing, namely the thickness at the seppa-dai, and if that was there it would be even more obvious that it isn't a mere plate.

As Chris says much in the aesthetics of things Japanese is by imputation, and perhaps the more limited the better: for this piece it is shape, convexity and state of the surface iron. I find the relative size of the nakago-ana rather off putting, and wonder if it might not have been on a polearm and somewhat earlier than Muromachi, namely Nanbokucho. The thickness is not a demerit, as while rather thick at the rim, Sasano illustrates one, p. 36, which is 4.2 cm at the rim and 4.44 at the seppa-dai, and he calls it Late Kamakura. It is interesting that all the Ko-tosho he illustrates have a ko-sukashi device.

Finally we should not get too excited about whether it is tosho or katchushi, as like everyone else the paper awarding organizations all know that the definition of each category is fuzzy and often it is a coin toss as to which bucket it goes into, and the terms themselves are not old. It is not even clear if the two groups of makers are two rather than versions of design differences falling into one group only.

Just a thought or two.

Arnold F.

[Pete Klein]

Here is a picture from the AOI site showing a side view. I don't see much of any decrease in thickness from the center to the edge:

As for the price actually seems quite reasonable to me at least as there has been a decrease in prices over the last ten years in Ko Tosho and Ko Katchushi in general but then I have not shopped in Japan so I might be wrong in this having only online and Japanese store catalogs to go by.

 

BTW -- Sasano's book was called 'Sukashi Tsuba' so I would imagine this wouldn't have exactly fit in. I pulled it out myself this morning and then thought, oh - yeah - DOH! LOL

[seattle1]

Hello:

With regard to Pete's post, no there is not a lot of decrease in thickness from the seppa-dai to the edge, but it does appear to decrease and the visual effect from light on such a surface, while subtle, is substantial. As for the reference to Sasano, it is the book Sasano (1993) and not one of the several books written by Sasano sensei. The point about ko-sukashi was to open the door to it possibly having come from a polearm. That is not a criticism of the piece, but a clue.

Arnold F.

[kunitaro]

This is maybe better ???

Look at Thickness of Sukashi part.

It is about "Niku-oki"

[seattle1]

Hello:

As a clarification I did not mean to suggest that the book referred to as Sasano was not written by Sasano sensei, just that it is not one of the older ones frequently cited. There is editing by John Harding, though I do not know its extent and I believe it was published posthumously. In any event it is the one Sasano meant to supplant his other publications as it is quite revisionary. A variorum comparison between it and the Japanese text from which it was taken would be interesting. In any event the book as such has no bearing on my observations about the tsuba offered at Aoi.

Arnold F.

[Antti]

I also saw this tsuba few days ago, as part of my "Check Aoi Art for new items"-routine. Just like my compatriot who started this topic, I was also somewhat baffled about this tsuba. It just didnt find it aesthetically appealing in any way, and there are plenty of Muromachi-period iron tsuba that I find very charming. So when I saw the price it did surprise me as well.

 

There are many things that Ive learned to appreciate during my life, despite the initial lack of appeal, but this just doesnt work for me. Also trying to learn to appreciate something just because a serious connoisseur should, is something that I find a bit repulsive. And as the taste of aesthetics is highly subjective, I'ts not even necessary.

 

But again, what do I know.

[Curran]

Honestly, after a long time at it I still have a hard time valuing these.

 

The timing of the thread was ironic, as I expected to list a ko-tosho / tosho , a late Jingo, and one or two sets of menuki on eBay soon.

Knowing what would be fair value for the ko-tosho is hardest.