Bishu Kiyomitsu - Redeeming Social Value?

[Nihonto Chicken]

I have a beefy tanto signed Bishu Kiyomitsu, 1568. I tend to suspect it as kazu uchimono due to its loose hada, but then its hamon and utsuri give me second thoughts. Opinions? Here are some pics, apologize for the poor quality, the camera never seems to see what my eyes do, damned tricky to get the lighting right to digitally show what I view easily.

 

Overall:

 

 

Utsuri closer up (ura side out of focus, but still gives a decent general idea):

 

 

Hada and utsuri still closer:

 

 

Better pics of hamon (also note the long ware near the mune):

 

Soooo, submit for shinsa, or use it to slice baloney? Inquiring minds ...

[paulb]

Morning Rick,

your post raises a question I hadn@t considered before.When thinking about Kazu Uchimon I tend to look at wakazashi and katana, basically fighting swords for lower ranking samurai or foot soldiers. Tanto tend to be thought of, at least by me, as personal protection weapons for more senior Samurai. This being the case there was never the volume demand there was for the other types of weapon. This is borne out by the relatively low numbers of Tanto that exist today.

If this is the case one would assume the smiths did not use the mass production teachniques associated with kazu uchimono and the vast majority of tanto were made with greater care.

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

 

the vast majority of tanto were made with greater care.

 

 

I've seen numerous tanto really poorly made.

 

but then its hamon and utsuri give me second thoughts

 

Based on what i can see i've big doubt it is a true utsuri.

[paulb]

Hi Jacques

Yes i agree with you about the utsuir on this it looks strange

re poorly made tanto I have seen many in poor condition and some very average late ones but I cant say I have seen poorly made koto tanto blades . Can you share some examples please?

[Dr Fox]

Better pics of hamon (also note the long ware near the mune)

 

 

Hi Rick

 

Did you mean 'near the ha'?, as I dont seem to spot the ware you might be indicating.

Denis

[Marius]

Rick,

 

can you post the dimensions please? Nagasa and motohaba being the most important.

[Jim P]

Hi Denis,there you go its a long one, (Did you mean 'near the ha'?, as I don't seem to spot the ware you might be indicating.)

 

 

Rick, (submit for shinsa ?) probably not from the pics,some condition issues,If it was me

[cabowen]

Maybe it is the photos but it looks like it has been given an acid treatment. It might polish out to be very nice- one doesn't have to worry about shintetsu usually with tanto. I have seen kizu such as these polish out. Of course, I have also seen them get worse, you never know what will happen once a togi-shi starts chasing them.

 

In its present condition, I wouldn't waste any time or money on sending it to Japan for shinsa. There may well be a US NTHK-NPO shinsa next year and that would be a more judicious move (my affiliation noted).

 

I would show it to someone like Hayashi san for his opinion first.

[Nihonto Chicken]

Hi Rick

 

Did you mean 'near the ha'?, as I dont seem to spot the ware you might be indicating.

Denis

 

Look at the long, thin dark line near the mune in the last two pics in my original post.

 

 

Based on what i can see i've big doubt it is a true utsuri.

Maybe it is the photos but it looks like it has been given an acid treatment.

 

No acid treatment, just a lot of uchiko work.

 

Rick,

 

can you post the dimensions please? Nagasa and motohaba being the most important.

 

Have to run off to an appointment, will provide these later.

 

Just wondering whether this tanto would be worth a NCJSC shinsa lottery ticket this August (assuming there are some entry slots still available).

[Nihonto Chicken]

Rick, can you post the dimensions please? Nagasa and motohaba being the most important.

 

Okay, home again, here are the numbers:

 

28.9cm nagasa

2.9cm motohaba

.75cm motokasane (at machi, .80cm max. width behind machi)

.2cm sori

 

If not utsuri, what are the cloud-like bands? Note that they depend on the angle of the illumination, at certain angles what are bright in these pics appear instead as dark bands, the effect is definitely based on the micro-structure of the steel and is not a surface cosmetic feature such as, say, hadori.

 

Edit: Surfing through the sales section I noticed two sue Bishu Kiyomitsu tanto for sale. Both strongly resemble mine in the hada, including the loose hada and ware. Both are indicated by the previous sellers (sword dealers) to exhibit utsuri, though neither show it to the degree of my example. Did I over-uchiko? So what to do to "tone it down" so as not to shock the nihonto greybeards?

[runagmc]

That doesn't look like utsuri to me... It almost looks like shintetsu or something, but I can't tell for sure...

[Nihonto Chicken]

That doesn't look like utsuri to me... It almost looks like shintetsu or something, but I can't tell for sure...

 

Was just reviewing my old threads this eve and re-encountered this post. Okay, given that there may be legitimate contentions as to the basis for the pictured hataraki, just how could this ever be interpreted as shintetsu??? Appears to be the exact opposite in terms of appearance. Enlighten me, please, I'm eager to learn.

[runagmc]

Maybe nie utsuri? I don't know, but it looks rough what ever it is... no offence meant. LIke Chris said maybe it would polish out... altough if it has been polished with uchiko a lot, I tend to doubt it.

 

I said shintetsu before mainly because of how some areas in the ji appear to have hardly any hada (also the lighter color dull looking steel), which would make me think the material wasn't refined as much through multiple foldings...

 

It may not be worth the effort, but if you want you could try posting some pics in different light, maybe that would help members evaluate what we are seeing...

[nagamaki - Franco]

There is a type of utsuri, sorry, name escapes me at the moment, that appears on tired blades and strongly suspect that is the case here. See Yamanaka's definitions and descriptions of utsuri.

[runagmc]

Shirake utsuri maybe?

[Bazza]

TSUKARE UTSURI - seen in tired and over-polished blades. Rick, look down on the mune and see how narrow the blade is at the machi compared to a little further back on the nakago. Simply put the two words in to google - here is a sample:

 

http://www.buildingthepride.com/faculty ... ri_Ted.htm

 

Bestests,

BaZZa.

[Alex A]

Tsukare-utsuri (tired utsuri), undulating jihada?, just a thought.

 

Edit, didnt see Bazza,s post

 

Alex.

[Nihonto Chicken]

TSUKARE UTSURI - seen in tired and over-polished blades. Rick, look down on the mune and see how narrow the blade is at the machi compared to a little further back on the nakago.

.75cm motokasane (at machi, .80cm max. width behind machi)

It's been polished down some, but not a whole bunch. If the effect were indeed tsukare utsuri, that is, shin tetsu coming up at the surface, then there necessarily has to be a break in the hada pattern at the border between the core steel and the skin steel. No way is the core hada (usually a coarse masame?) going to match up with the skin hada (mostly itame here, going to masame near the mune). There is no such hada discontinuity that I can see. I took some photos as below. I could only get small portions, given the lighting and my poor little point and shoot camera, which liked to see its reflection in the picture when I got close enough to take a macro shot. And despite the loose hada, the regular hada isn't all that prominent. The ha is to the right in the below pics. Note the hada is consistent from the mune across the utsuri area in question and to the ha.

 

To perhaps muddy the water a bit, also consider that with light from a different direction, the hamon is bright, the area adjacent it is dark and the next area toward the mune is bright. This

 

as opposed to this

[cabowen]

It would be rather unusual for a blade of this size to be made of more than one piece of steel.

[runagmc]

Chris I can't say for Koto, but on Usagiya's website, there smith (Keiun?) makes tanto from multi piece construction...

[cabowen]

Most tanto are said to be one piece. No doubt there are exceptions, but there is no reason to use more than a single piece in a short blade.

[runagmc]

Conservation of the best tamahagane maybe? I'm sure you're right about most being single piece construction, though...