Kamon help

[Pete Klein]

I would be most appreciative if anyone would help me out with a mon question as I do not currently have any references on this subject. I would like to know the families who used the Tachibana mon depicted here:

 

Thanks so much!

[John A Stuart]

This version used by the Goto family for one. Funny though not the Tachibana clan. John

[Pete Klein]

Interesting. It is on a lacquer box which holds a mumei Yoshioka kogai I just received. It has a sliding drawer which is lined with red lacquer, the outside done in speckled as seen around the mon posted above. Here is the kogai:

[Curran]

Beautiful kogai.

You've probably already seen this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tachibana_clan_%28kuge%29

The list of persons associated with the 'mon' are below in the link.

 

~However, given that it is a kuge thing / historical allusion vs a mon, I'm not sure you can take a firm Edo period answer away from it.

Finding Western Heraldry to be a bit of a mad mix-up, I've always hesitated to delve into pre-Edo heraldry.

I was hoping one of the more broadly educated savants on the board would nail the answer.

 

Would like to compare your kogai with the one I have of this design, which I eventually attributed to Yasuda School and said that is good enough.

[Soshin]

Hi Pete K.,

 

The design of the fruit with first three and then two leaves I think is significant to the kamon design. Here is a tsuba of mine that in going through NBTHK shinsa this month with a similar design as your box.

 

P.S. Very nice kogai.

[Baka Gaijin]

Morning all,

 

I believe this Kamon is commonly referred to as Maruni Tachibana, there is a varient with a Chrysanthemum embodied with the form called Maruni Kikuza Tachibana,

a further variant without the three lobes at the top is known as Maruni Hitotsu Chanomi.

 

Cheers

[Pete Klein]

  Quote

I would like to know the families who used the Tachibana mon depicted here:

 

Thanks all.

[uwe]

I think we have some similarities here

 

 

Unfortunately, I have no clue about the school

 

Uwe

[Pete Klein]

Could be Yoshioka school work. Nanako is a bit large but it's so difficult to tell in pictures. Yoshioka work tends to be sharp and crisp. They were one of three Iebori to the Tokugawa Shogunate along with Shirobei Goto and Hirata (not to be confused with the Hirata Hikozo line of Higo).

[Brian]

Really like that kogai Pete. Great work, and lovely colouring to the shakudo.

Funny how so many kogai look austere and refined compared to so many kozuka which seem overdone and gaudy or cheap looking. Wonder if there is anything to that...

 

Brian

[uwe]

The "lines" are very sharp and crisp on this kozuka. Very elaborate work, the pic can't judge. Yoshioka......

Thanks Pete

 

Uwe

 

PS: Actually I'm not familiar with kodogu

[Pete Klein]

Well, they actually run the gamut but the higher end ones do tend to be a bit reserved. The kogai is 'first in rank' as it is worn omote-zashi (the majority of the time -- there are a few, very rare 'ura-zashi' kogai which you can tell because the jita theme is reversed). I posted this awhile back but this is an example of a more flamboyant kogai yet still refined, by Goto Joshin, third Shirobei master:

 

There are two very fine and 'reserved' kogai on Tetsugendo.com right now, one by Goto Sojo, the other by Joshin.

[Curran]

  Pete Klein said:

Could be Yoshioka school work. Nanako is a bit large but it's so difficult to tell in pictures. Yoshioka work tends to be sharp and crisp. They were one of three Iebori to the Tokugawa Shogunate along with Shirobei Goto and Hirata (not to be confused with the Hirata Hikozo line of Higo).

 

Peter,

I'm going to belabor a point for a minute: upon what distinction are the Yasuda included / excluded from the 'Iebori' of the Tokugawa Shogunate. Some books have then as sub contractors to the Goto or alternatives to the Yoshioka. They worked almost exclusively for the bakufu, lived on bakufu land, and were supposedly better paid by the bakufu than the Yoshioka (just in lump sum terms, not per employee basis).

 

But as supposed 'Goto subcontractors' they also hired further subcontractors. Slippage in quality. Thus I don't hold their work on par with mainline Goto or Yoshioka.

When not Goto, not as crisp as Yoshioka, and something of very high level shakudo but unsigned- Yasuda seems to be the NBTHK paper.

[John A Stuart]

''There are two very fine and 'reserved' kogai on Tetsugendo.com right now, one by Goto Sojo, the other by Joshin.'' I looked at them; one attracted my attention, but, the wear to the nanako put me off a bit. Stll need a Minobori kogai. John

[Pete Klein]

John -- Yes -- that's the one that was published in the Token Bijutsu in the Fukushi sensei lecture series awhile ago. I can't remember the issue -- perhaps a year ago.

 

Curran -- I am not familiar with that name nor have seen a paper as such but found information in Markus Sesko'o book, 'The Japanese Toso-Kinko- Schools':

See -- you learn something every day!

 

PS: I also found this example: http://www.to-ken.com/full.php?article=nm002&type=home

 

PPS: if you study this field you NEED this book!!!

[Curran]

Here is one set:

http://thesoulofthesamurai.net/product.php?s=yasuda

 

I was trying to find the link to another mitokoromono set of shakudo I'd seen recently. Seems to have sold.

Also looks like Mike n Cyrus had something signed by this school on their website at some point.

[Pete Klein]

Here is the link: http://tetsugendo.com/swords/Tan_119_masataka.html

 

Interesting work. I was thinking on this for the last several hours and it occured to me that there must have been thousands of retainers under the Tokugawa umbrella who required everything you can think of so there must have also been different ranks of makers for the different levels of retainers. This would be a study unto itself. What I noticed on the kogai I received yesterday is the fine line edges and planar carving to the piece (katate) along with the very fine nanako. It's a different feel than Goto work, almost like the difference between German and French/Italian design concepts, where one tends more to geometric planar and the other curvelinear. Of course these are generalizations.

[Tim Evans]

> would be most appreciative if anyone would help me out with a mon question as I do not currently have any references on this subject. I would like to know the families who used the Tachibana mon depicted here:

 

Pete,

 

Chapplear's book lists the following families using this particular form of the mon: Obayashi, Sekiyado, Udagawa.

 

Kindest regards,

[Pete Klein]

Thanks much!