HELP: black spot on the blade

[Bensuke]

Hello everyone!

 

I purchased an Edo jidai wakizashi few months ago and noticed some black spots on the Hi-boshi. I enclosed some pictures.

I also noticed few "scratch-looking" black lines on the hamon (not visible on the pictures) that however do not look like hagire or real scratches to me. I first guessed it may be dust or cloth fibers but it seems to be quite similar to the black spots mentioned earlier.

 

I began to worry about my wakizashi's heath and would like your opinions on what these "stains" might be and how to get rid of them. Looking forward to read your opinions and advices!

 

Thanks in advance!

 

 

Pictures available here: http://hpics.li/1f9541d and http://hpics.li/e24b336

[pcfarrar]

It's hard to see on your photo but it looks like finger print staining. Best thing to do is just give it a good clean with uchiko.

[Marius]

On uchiko: CAUTION !!!!

 

"Good cleaning" does not mean that you have to use a lot of force when wiping the uchiko off the blade. You have to wipe frequently, but very gently. Too much pressure of your thumb and index finger and you will have nasty hike - hairline scratches.

 

Attached is a pic of a blade with hike.

[Dick Tait]

On uchiko: CAUTION !!!!

 

"Good cleaning" does not mean that you have to use a lot of force when wiping the uchiko off the blade. You have to wipe frequently, but very gently. Too much pressure of your thumb and index finger and you will have nasty hike - scratches.

 

I was listening to an interview with Paul Martin yesterday and he mentioned that once you've applied the uchiko, tap the blade (I guess meaning strike fist on fist to shake/bounce the blade) in order to remove any larger particles that may scratch the blade. Makes sense.

[Marius]

I was listening to an interview with Paul Martin yesterday and he mentioned that once you've applied the uchiko, tap the blade (I guess meaning strike fist on fist to shake/bounce the blade) in order to remove any larger particles that may scratch the blade. Makes sense.

 

Yes, this is a good thing to do. But even those remaining small particles are abrasive, as uchiko is made from the uchigomori polishing stone...

 

So, caution is strongly urged, and a gentle touch is mandatory.

[Bensuke]

Thanks for your fast replies!

 

pcfarrar: might be! I was always careful not to touch the blade and didn't let anyone do so. Would it be possible that i left a finger print while cleaning it up with the paper or when i oiled it?

 

mariuszk: Thanks for your warning! That may be a cause, but the stains on mine are perpendicular to the cutting edge and black. It is really hard to get it on pic but i tried my best. You can find the picture here: http://hpics.li/cc5c41d

Hope this will help!

[Marius]

mariuszk: Thanks for your warning! That may be a cause, but the stains on mine are perpendicular to the cutting edge and black.

 

No, no, I was warning you not to scratch your blade when trying to remove the stains with uchiko. Your stains are most likely someone's finger prints, which have resulted in rust. Could also be something in the saya, you never know

[Alex A]

Maybe the use of gloves when handling blades is a good idea, over the top maybe, but less risk of damage to the blade.

 

Alex

[Marius]

Alex,

 

not a good idea. Cotton gloves are slippery, you risk dropping the blade. Just do not touch the blade with your bare hand, and have a piece of soft, white paper to rest a long blade on when viewing.

 

If you have not read this manual, please do. Page 3 and 6 describe how to view the sword.

 

http://nbthk-ab.org/pdf-files/swordcare.pdf

[Alex A]

Yes I agree, I have used disposable rubber gloves from work, but maybe its best not to bother now I come to think about it.

 

Alex

[Lingonberry]

pcfarrar: might be! I was always careful not to touch the blade and didn't let anyone do so.

Hope this will help!

 

Sometimes people sneak a peek and touch when you're not looking. I had friends over for a BBQ/Pool Party and showed them a katana and explicitly told them not to touch it. Imagine my annoyance when I looked at it a few days later with a very clear fingerprint right next to the Habaki. Good thing it didn't appear to have started any rust before I managed to clean it off. I'm pretty sure I know who it was, but fortunately she's gone for good now...

[Alex A]

Last year after a dozen or so pints I decided to show a few of the lads one of my swords, wasn't a good idea. Lucky my misses was there, told me to put them away and grow up :D : l. Dread to think what could have happened, they get put away now.

 

Alex

[ROKUJURO]

Gentlemen,

 

this is a problem of minimal technical understanding and respect, and I have the impression that many people today just don't care.

I run a knife-shop with display tables, and I take part in knife-maker's exhibitions. There are always some nice and visible signs lying on the table asking to take the knives by the handles and please not to touch the blades.

 

People just don't understand - when I see somebody touching the blade I inform him or her that the steel is not stainless. You would be astonished by their replies: 'I wanted to check the sharpness' or 'I am careful'. The best reply is always 'Yes, I know'.

 

What can you say?

[cabowen]

You just can't fix stupid.

[Tcat]

Ah... the old chestnut of friends and touching blades. I don't even bother telling people not to touch a blade anymore. When I make the decision to get one out, suffice to say I am ready for anything. I just let whoever it is cop a good old feel to get it out of their system. I have the windex and choji handy for when they've had their kicks. I don't know how many times I've said "don't touch the blade" only to be (select one or more) given puppy eyes / ignored / considered a pedant / ignored / seen as overreacting / thought of as superstitious / ignored / labelled a spoilsport. Did I mention ignored?

 

Solution - don't get the nice ones out for anyone other than sword aficionados..

[seattle1]

Hello:

Finger prints, if that is what they are, require some first aid. In an extreme case, perhaps on a highly rated and valuable sword, even the attention of a polisher might be called for, however there are many small things that can be done to help a blade short of a togi. Polishing is a great a wonderful thing, and when well done you are actually helping extend the appreciation and time line of the stream of existing swords, but that is another issue.

It seems to me that uchiko use, sufficient to eliminate securely established prints, is nothing short of brutal. Such an abrasive use of uchiko would probably dish the spot, if ever so slightly, and it would take on a quite different look from the rest of the polished surface. I would recommend the use of a product called Never Dull, not always easy to find, but very effective. Its intended use is to polish, that is to remove a film, and to do so without scratching. Common uses are on uniform buttons, bike chrome and the like. It is cotton impregnated with some liquid that when used with little pressure will tend to remove stains and films of various kinds, do no scratching and to leave a sort of white dry surface that can be cleaned off with old fashioned lighter fluid. A few repeats might be called for. As who knows what the liquid in the cotton is, wear rubber gloves and have good ventilation. Be sure the surface is cleaned of any particulate matter before you start, restrict yourself to the marks you are trying to get rid of, and there is no need to rub more than a few minutes or press hard. In my experience it is excellent stuff, but of course anyone who uses it does so at their own risk.

Good luck.

Arnold F.

[Dr Fox]

I sometimes show sensible persons my swords, but never during alcohol presence. And only after teaching the proper 'hand over' etiquette. I have four pairs of gloves just for just such occasions. For most people to hold a real sword, gives a visible thrill and very positive feedback from the experience. I know it did for me first time, and still does years later.

Denis.

[Dr Fox]

Hi Arnold

 

I think your Never Dull is called Duraglit here in the UK, its a cotton impregnated with Brasso, there is also one for Gold and Silver. This is a follow up on your post and not an endorsement for its use on nihonto by me.

 

Telling people not to skin touch the blade, is like a sign that states WET PAINT, there is always those, who have to test the validity of the sign, to prove it wrong!

 

Denis.

[Grey Doffin]

I would recommend against using Never Dull. It will remove superficial corrosion but it also will alter the apearance of the steel. I have seen Koto blades made to resemble Showa-to by the use of Never Dull.

Grey

[seattle1]

Hello:

Yes Never Dull is more or less the same as Duraglit. they are probably functional substitutes.

We have had one vote that cautions against the use Never Dull. To each his own. A careful reading of my post will flash caution, reinforced by experience; aggressive use of the product will have undesirable results. It would be hard to damage a blade with Never Dull to the extent that enthusiastic use of uchiko will, but some will insist on trying. Easy does it is the rule. If a blade really needs a "face lift", a professional togi-shi is the only way to go. Short of that Never Dull, in my own experience, will do good and no damage. Some years ago a well known professor of metallurgy at the University of Washington had a substantial following for his "discovery" of the wonderful effects of sandpaper as a polish ... you can imagine the consequences, sooo, judgement and caution should never be checked at the door!

Arnold F.

[Marius]

Arnold,

 

care to show us the results of using Never Dull? Not on chrome and brass, but on nihonto. I'd surely like to see them. Also, do you exactly know what this stuff contains?

[runagmc]

I don't know anything about Neverdull, but I wouldn't use any polishing compound that I know of on a Japanese sword, since all the ones I have seen are made to give a mirror like polish, which will only serve to hide any activity a sword may have... Uchiko will not do this, so in my opinion it is a better option...

 

Also, I think it's worth saying that I believe it would take years and years of rubbing a spot with uchiko to cause a depression. It seems to me it would be almost impossible. Uchiko is an extremely fine abrasive and it's not very aggressive...

 

From reading Arnold F's posts', he seems to be knowledgeable so, I won't write off Neverdull completely until I have the chance to use it for myself...

[seattle1]

Hello:

What Never Dull is not is a "polishing compound". It is an abrasion free cotton soaked with a high viscosity liquid of some sort. It will not scratch, it will not have an effect on any surrounding polished area in my experience, and that experience is very short term use, perhaps five minutes per try. What I have used it for is that dark black post rust spotting on a blade. It will not produce an undetectable blending into the surrounding area, however it will tend to minimize the spot. "Minimize" is in the eye of the beholder; for some it will be seen as slight, for others it will be seen as a great improvement. If two or three attempts don't do it, quit.

If the spot is new and rather fresh with an obvious to the touch raised and rough surface, that should be removed. It is very easy to do with the edge of one of those high copper (no zinc) content British pennies - use the one with Queen Victoria or her son. More recent coins will tend to have zinc and the like in the alloy and might scratch. Those coins will remove the crust of the rust without scratching the surrounding polished surface. Don't take my word for it, try it. I have seen thousands of polished blade surfaces with spot or spider rust here that have been visually ruined by being scratched by some well meaning collector using a steel stylus of some sort. The penny use is not a substitute for a togi when widespread deep rust is present. Before trying the Never Dull be sure that any loosened rust bits are gone before using the Never Dull or they might cause scratching.

Take a British penny as described to a rust area of a low value sword or one headed for a togi anyway and see for yourself. Ditto with the Never Dull. There is nothing to compare with a professional polish, however small damage minimizing things like those described can be useful. Experiment for yourself and report to us. Needless to say I only recommend the above, nothing but the above, and from experience. Polishing "compounds" are a no no, so is steel wool, etc., etc. If you are content with your sword as it is, leave it alone.

Arnold F.

[cabowen]

Basically any metal polish that is not an abrasive, has a chemical of some sort, usually an acid or alkali type, that is an anti-oxidant and is used to remove "tarnish" from metals like copper, silver, zinc, etc.

 

Any polish that does not remove the oxides chemically, is an abrasive. That does not mean it has to be a 40 or 60 grit. Some of the finer pastes used in metalurgical labs have abrasives as small as 1/2 microns. It will polish beyond the cellular/grain size of most metals.

 

If you look at the suggested list of materials for use with Never Dull, there is no mention of steel, only metals that "tarnish". That would lead one to believe it uses chemicals to clean, rather than abrasives.

 

That being said, there are many reports of it leaving scratches on chrome, etc. It is not known if it is removing the oxides, which are then transported by the Never Dull and abrading the surface as there are many reports that it contains some abrasives.

 

Either way, Arnold's advice to try it on something bound for polish is a good one. Make sure you understand what it does before using it on something that you don't want any surprises with.

[SwordGuyJoe]

I used to use this stuff - Neverdull - all the time (unfortunately), while in the Navy. It does an amazing job on brass, but I would never - and I mean never - use it on one of my swords. The chemical smell is palpable and keep in mind that it is soaked cotton, not silk - So lets not kid ourselves, it is abrasive (not to mention the potential reaction a sword will have with the chemicals). Anyone who has glasses and use their T-shirt, towel, etc. to clean their glasses knows that cotton is abrasive.

[Alex A]

I use microfibre to wipe my swords, I prefer white cotton towels, so cotton is no good for a steel blade?

 

Alex.

[Dr Fox]

http://www.e-hygienesystems.com/coshh/s ... raglit.pdf

http://www.futures-supplies.co.uk/downl ... rasso_.pdf

 

Denis.

[Brian]

With the same cautions that Arnold has given, I have used Never Dull a little bit on completely out of polish swords, and it will help to show if there is a hamon there. It doesn't polish bright...and it does remove stains or reduce them. I wouldn't use it on an in-polish sword (no-one advocated that) but on rusted or stained blades, you have no chance of removing metal.

And of course you would always oil the blade afterwards. It appears to be some type of paraffin soaked soft cotton.

Anyways, usual warnings apply, but you could use worse things than that.

Oh..and I believe Arnold is a director of the JSSUS, so he knows a thing or 2 about not damaging a sword

 

Brian

[seattle1]

Hello:

I am glad to see a couple of posts that were at least open mind about Never Dull. I only spoke of my own experience and stressed caution in experimentation and use. I find it does no damage, does not differentiate the spot attended relative to the surrounding polish, and will minimize blackish spots, but not remove them, at least not within my limits of caution. It is no substitute for a professional togi if aesthetics are the primary goal.

Denis's post was particularly helpful as a caution. I presume he is a physician and the citations warn of the importance of skin and breathing protection, as I believe I did.

There are some terrible things done to swords and some rather benign, like the use of choji oil which one author claims to be a scented transmission fluid. I have seen another report, I believe in an issue of the British To-ken Society programme (could be wrong as to source!), which analyzed Kleenex-like tissue to the level of all the abrasives it can contain. Most steel wool is a big "no no," and I would never dream of using the rough paper included in Japanese sword care kits.

Swords are the leavings of time and it is sometimes better to do nothing, certainly to avoid harm if we know it as so, but we should also remember that togi is, by definition, a reductive process, so it is always a matter of a "trade off" and all trade offs are a function of what we value. For some, stabilizing damage is highly valued, for others putting a sword into a state where it can qualify for a (good?) paper is more highly valued. It is always a personal choice.

Arnold F.

[Dr Fox]

Rust presents a problem, in that if it is not stabilised it will continue to damage. In the gun trade parts, (especially barrels) came in suffering from oil neglect. The quick fix to halt this situation was the application of boiling water poured straight from the kettle. The heated item dried immediately, and an oil coat was applied, the rust then appeared as black spots, not removed, but stabilised before deciding on the best course of further action. [Gun browning/blueing is induced rusting halted by boiling in water.]

Once again, I state this is not my endorsement for use on sword blades! But I have used it on bright steel non-blued items, and obtained the results above.

Denis.