Confirmed orders for "The Index of Japanese Swordsmiths"

[Alex A]

Having had more time to think about this today (hectic yesterday), and with quality being in mind, I am tempted to say that the insides should now be printed on a slightly thicker stock. I am now suggesting 115 gram, I believe it may be described as 80# in the US, this would need to be verified with the printers. Although 104 gram (70#) is adequate, I think a slightly thicker sheet will prevent show through ( text visable through other side of sheet). All this obviously will need to be discussed with the printers, presuming there is no sample sheets.

 

I should also point out that some printers will use a 104 gram stock as an alternative to 115 gram, nothing wrong with that as long as it feels about the same in hand. All down to paper density.

 

Sorry to complicate things a little.

 

To sum up, the insides should be printed on the thickest and best quality stock possible for that particular type and size/thickness of book. Something may have to give somewhere, depending on price.

 

Err on the side of caution, is whats in mind.

 

Alex.

[Brian]

Ok..here's where we are.

The second printers came back with a quote that is too high for 150 copies. So I have gone back to the original company and requested a quote on the thicker paper. I think 70# will be adequate. We can have it done in 80# for an extra $3 per set.

 

Here are the specs:

 

Digital soft proofs of the text.

Text ‐ prepared from customer furnished compatible trouble‐free PostScript/PDF files.

Text ‐ prints in black ink throughout.

Text ‐ 70# Finch

Fold and gather then smyth sew with 80# matching endsheets tipped. Back with crash and paper.

Reinforce with cold glue cap. Mat

ching head and foot bands. Casebind with a flat back in C grade

cloth over .110 pt. binders boards. Stamp spine and cover 1 in foil using dies provided by printer

Finished books bulk pack in 275# test cartons, banded on skids for shipment.

 

150 copies of Vol 1: $4300

150 copies of Vol 2: $4200

 

If we want a ribbon..then $1.15 each book extra (second company only wanted $0.51)

 

We have a possible volunteer to store and ship the books at cost, but I think it would be fair that he makes something out of it. But shipping to him is $250 at least.

 

So possible total cost per set is $91.00 ($4300 + $4200 + $345 + $250 for 150 sets) with ribbon.

Remember that we are looking to sell 100 copies for the price of the 150, and then sell the extra 50 copies over time.

 

However, this price of $91 per set excludes royalties for Markus. This needs to be worked out. Possibly by adding a value to the books, or additionally offering the bulk of the price from the additional 50 sets when they sell. I think the shipper also needs to make something per book for shipping. Markus needs to make decent money on this, as it is really his book and he has final say on anything.

 

Brian

[Alex A]

As long as the 70# samples check out ok and it does not feel on the flimsy side, then im sure it will be ok. If not, i presume folk will not grumble if you need to order 80# instead, only $3 per set after all.

 

Its about geting a balance right, quite a thickish book at 500 pages (250 leaves approx), you dont want it to be flimsy, but on the other hand, you dont want it to end up like a doomsday book.

 

Alex.

[b.hennick]

Thank you Brian for all the work you have done to date to the project this far. I see this coming to a satisfactory conclusion in the near future.

[Markus]

I can only second Barry. Thank you very much Brian for all your efforts and not giving up!

 

If this is going to be realized, I would suggest that everyone who has found out some mistakes or

unclear points, which are unavoidable at 900 pages, adds them to the thread started by Chris a

while ago:

 

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=14715&p=128748

 

I would be very grateful for your support as you just can´t have in mind what was found out on each

and every smith when compiling such a work.

[Gabriel L]

Hi Markus,

 

First of all, thank you so much for contributing this important work, I use it often.

 

This is not errata, hence why I have subsequently deleted the original post I made on that thread you linked to; but I hope you will not be overly annoyed if I make a humble typographical suggestion? „German quotation marks“ are only used in German and various Eastern European countries / Slavic languages. As long as an English translation has been made (a fact for which I am deeply grateful), surely it would be a good idea for that translation to also follow English typographical conventions, most notably “English quotation marks.” It improves readability (or at least reduces distraction) for the people actually using that translation.

 

It should not be difficult to change this, in fact; simply execute two "find-replace" functions, a 15-second operation:

 

1) Find “ and replace with ”

2) Find „ and replace with “

 

(Note that the order is important, otherwise the process will not work correctly).

 

I recognize this is a niggling, trivial concern (it's not as if the book is not entirely usable as-is), but as an amateur typographer and typesetter, I would be remiss not to suggest it, as long as another printing of the hard copy is planned. This of course in no way diminishes the much more important and impressive job you have done in assembling this content and making it so accessible!

 

Sincerely,

—GLL

 

PS—For anyone planning or writing a self-published book, I strongly encourage you to acquire Bringhurst's venerable "The Elements of Typographic Style," or at the very least to read through the (free!) site "Butterick's Practical Typography." It will make a world of difference in terms of the professionalism of your typesetting, and consequently elevate the "voice" of your message to something more authoritative. Such is the power of design, fair or not...

[Markus]

I hope you will not be overly annoyed

 

Not a bit. I am really very grateful for such tips! Also thanks a lot for the links. I will

change the quotation marks according to the English conventions and will also take

this to heart for my future publications.

 

That applies to the others too. If you have any suggestions, don´t hesitate to

contact me. I am always around here and not too hard to find.

[Brian]

Would anyone who works with books care to hazard a guess as to the weight of these 2 volumes printed on high quality paper?

2 volumes, one about 448 pages, the other about 424. 8.5" x 11"

Also, does anyone know if the USA has a special book rate for shipping internationally? The large Flat rate box would be too much, over $50 postage.

Costs are getting too high so we need to figure something out.

 

Brian

[Grey Doffin]

That would be me.

I bet the books weigh about 7 to 8 pounds, plus packaging. Media rate post inside the US will be affordable: possibly less than $10 with insurance. The problem arises when you ship outside of the US. At that weight, priority is cheaper than priority flat rate but still $55 to Europe without insurance added on. There is no service less expensive than priority once you get over 4 pounds weight. And shipping the 2 volumes in 2 packages by 1st class (less than 4# per package) costs more than the 1 package by priority.

Grey

[Gabriel L]

Not a bit. I am really very grateful for such tips! Also thanks a lot for the links. I will

change the quotation marks according to the English conventions and will also take

this to heart for my future publications.

 

I'm glad you found it helpful! Thanks again for all your work (not just on this volume but your other books as well).

[Brian]

Thanks Grey that's what I was afraid of. That is a bit of a stumbling block. I can't see ppl easily paying over $60 for shipping. Add Paypal fees, and that is approaching $170 for the set with shipping internationally. Too much...and that's before we solve the royalties issue.

That extra 50 copies is going to make or break this. We need to sell them.

 

Brian

[Brian]

Here's my thinking. The only way to do this is to sell all 150 copies. That way, the total is spread over 150 sets. So approximately $9500 divided by 150 = $63 per volume. Add Markus' royalties, a little bit for the person handling the shipping and storage, and credit card processing fees, and we can do them for the $100. People are just going to have to live with the high postage if they are overseas. Combine shipping with others in their area.

But to guarantee the 150 sales, we need commited buyers. So why not use a Kickstarter or Indiegogo campaign?

If we don't reach the target, people get refunded. If we do..the project is funded and we can go ahead. They will take around 7-9% for fees and CC fees.

I think we could make it if we do it that way. Surely a big campaign could reach people worldwide if we all publicize it?

This isn't going to happen in a day or a week..but it is something to consider going forward.

 

Brian

[Gabriel L]

If you open a Kickstarter, I’ll gladly publicize it on SFI, myArmoury, Facebook, Reddit, etc. I’ll open an account on SBG just for it (I don’t have anything “against” SBG, just never had a reason to post there before). I’ll pass it along by word-of-mouth for those collectors who live in the “real world.” All that will probably get you… 4 actual sales total? :lol: Realistically it can be hard to get real money into a project even when it seems like there ought to be more than enough community support.

 

But in a way that’s a really good argument for a Kickstarter. If it doesn’t work, nobody loses anything (except time, for the organizers). If it works, you have guaranteed orders. It’s no-risk. So I’m all for it.

[Jussi Ekholm]

Amazing job Brian, this is sounding great.

 

Gabriel, I can do the SBG announcing too as I'm quite active poster there :D. But possibly the age structure & intrests there might not be the ideal for this project. But spreading the word is the best thing to do, and who knows there might pop up intrested folks in unexpected places. But for many spending that much on books might sound crazy.

 

Like you I have bit little faith in members of other sword forums being intrested in this project but I might be totally wrong about it. And given the poll of this thread on a forum which specializes in this field shows how hard it is to get folks involved on this.

 

Kickstarter is a great idea, and I'll try my best to recruit intrested folks in when the time comes.

 

Did I count the poll correctly that we would be on 70 orders now, so we would need 80 more?

[Dr Fox]

Jussi

 

Check me if I am wrong here!

48 votes on poll.

46 to buy.

Those 46 are on promise for 80 sets.

Thus leaving 70 to sell?

 

Denis

[Dr Fox]

Have we sought support from the various To-Ken societies? Clive could advise us here! Any reference libraries that, hold these types of books for studies. Also with only 150 sets, this is a limited edition run.

 

Denis.

[b.hennick]

I upped my commitment to 10 copies but that is not reflected in the count. There are others who also increased their commitment. If every person increased their commitment by one we would reach the target.

[Mikevorn]

I would like a copy.

[Adrian]

 

What I need right now is comments from those who know these things about what paper would be best for this publication.

The current quote is for 70# matte which is a coated stock, (this is a paper finish that would commonly be used in a color coffee-table type book.) and also have a quote for 60# offset (but I think this is more like photocopy type paper.

 

Looking for comments and suggestions. We would like a good quality paper, doens'nt have to be thicker than 70# does it? Coated or uncoated....matte or gloss?

I lean towards coated matte.

 

Glad to see the project is still alive. To be honest, at a point I thought you just wanted to bury it, but this is a matter where I love to be proven wrong.

 

Regarding paper, the worst possible idea would be to go cheap just to save a few bucks, particularly on a book of this size. The cost of paper isn't that big. At the very least I would go for #73 and my personal choice would be #81 or 85 (85 being 120g per square meter, if I got the conversion right, as I'm only used to the metric system in this particular field).

 

Regarding shipping to Europe, when I purchased Nagayama's Connoisseur from a large online bookstore based in UK, the book actually came from their deposit in Sweden and the shipping cost was next to nothing ( 1.7 sterling pounds if I remember correctly - and the book is quite heavy) . Unfortunately I don't remember if the shipment originated from the Swedish national post or another carrier, but maybe if we have a Swedish member he could bring some light to the matter.

If the above mentioned price wasn't part of a high volume deal, but is the usual price for shipping books from Sweden within the EU, perhaps it's worth investigating this possibility (freight shipping to Sweden to a shipping company and then individual shipping to the Eu based members who order the book).

[Adrian]

Brian, any news from the book printing front?

[Brian]

Postage costs are killing it for overseas members. Might still try a Kickstarter or Idiego campaign and see if we get funding. December went by like a lightning flash, and now need to find the time again. Maybe after the prize draw.

 

Brian

[Adrian]

Postage costs are killing it for overseas members.

 

 

I was under the impression that everyone who cast his vote here understood what are the postage costs for such a book and was willing to pay the price. Also the pre-order count was quite high, a few guys increased their order by posts on the topic and so on.

 

Did I missed something?

 

P.S. Sure, there's no rush on such volunteer work, but I doubt that the US printing company you found is going to maintain such a great offer indefinitely.

[Keichodo]

Greetings Brian,

 

I would take 3 sets.....

 

Regards,

 

Robert Hughes

[Lee J]

Missed the poll; I would like one copy.

[Brian]

I was under the impression that everyone who cast his vote here understood what are the postage costs for such a book and was willing to pay the price. Also the pre-order count was quite high, a few guys increased their order by posts on the topic and so on.

 

Did I missed something?

 

Yes...you did.

And no..I don't think overseas people were banking on shipping of over $60. With Paypal fees, that makes the set over $170 for them.

So yes..there would be cancellations. And yes..we need to sell 150 copies, not 100. And no..we didn't have commitments for 150 yet.

And yes, that quote stands.

 

Brian

[Adrian]

OK, maybe it's time for another topic, with a precise weight estimation for one set (based on the chosen paper), so all those who are interested can calculate postage using their chosen shipping method? (USPS would make perfect sense if printed in the USA, perhaps one of the flat fee boxes could be enough for a set).

 

At the very least we could get an exact picture of the demand at this point.

 

 

This doesn't require any effort but is very important - I can very well understand that you have no motivation to push forward if you don't know with a certain degree of certitude how many copies would be paid for ( before placing the order to the printer, of course).

 

P.S. Considering the fact that this was entirely my idea, that I'm the one who proved it can be done (despite some people claiming the opposite) and that I pushed the things forwards up to the point where you found this GREAT offer for US offset print at a reasonable cost and for a very small run (that really shouldn't be missed), I don't think that you should try to patronize me with this kind of replies...

 

I only want this project to succeed and I think it would be a great thing for this community, regardless of who started it and who completes it. Don't you agree?

[falconj]

Many thanks for the update Brian, and keeping us all informed on progress with these books

regards

John

[celt72]

I also missed the poll and would like a copy if possible.

[Stoney]

One for me also please. :D

[Dr Fox]

It is fair to comment, that although purchase at source is the same for all, getting the books to different World locations isn’t.

 

Anyone facing postage rates that are a high percentage of the item costs, will cease to see this offer as an attractive bargain, its an unfair proposal and could lead to withdrawn votes, exactly the opposite to what is required to bring the project to fruition.

 

I see this question of postage, a real stumbling block, and a problem that perhaps members could engage in, and see if the broader views might contain a workable answer.

 

I have come to regard this as a ‘one man show’ and leaving everything to Brian, this is of course not the best attitude to take, as there are only so many hours in anyone’s day.

 

Adrian

I for one have always maintained that this was you baby, and have applauded you for it.

But I ask, do you not accept that wanting the best paper, the proper covers and the best printing deals, comes to nought if the postage costs are exorbitant?

I for one had no idea what the postage cost would turn out to be!

Because until the printing location was finalised, how could one possibly know?