Confirmed orders for "The Index of Japanese Swordsmiths"

[cabowen]

I know that the JSS-US is always looking for opportunities to spread educational content. Additionally, they have experience in publishing and selling books. Maybe they could be contacted for assistance of some sort.

 

Also, there is the NBTHK-US Branch and the European Branch. Knowing their commitments to education, it would seem only natural that this would be a great project for them as well....

 

This is exactly the type of project that both of these organizations exist to undertake.

[Dr Fox]

The UK and Ireland are much smaller in land mass than where you guys are. I would like to think, that with the co-operation of the other NMB members here in the UK, we could sort out our distribution! Any seconders please.

Denis.

[Pete Klein]

A very good line from a not so good movie; "Friends and Money -- Oil and Water".

 

Michael Corleone, GF III

[Ian]

NMB members here in the UK, we could sort out our distribution! Any seconders please

Of course I will help

Ian

[b.hennick]

I just returned from ym sword club meeting. I would like to change my commitment to purchase from 2 to 10. Eight of the members present made firm commitments to me to buy the books. I will layout the money for my members and then distribute the books at our meetings. If other club heads can do the same at their meetings we would reduce shipping costs and increase orders.

Brian please change my 2 to a 10... :D

[Jussi Ekholm]

I originally said I would sign up for 5 copies for Finnish collectors, and we are having a Finnish nihonto meeting next weekend. I will bring Markus's Smith Index there so Finnish collectors can see the book, I bet many aren't even aware of it. After that I can say how many books we might order to Finland. I'll definately buy 2 for myself and maybe one extra to sell later on someone locally, but after hearing how many are intrested I can confirm some amount of books.

 

I think Chris's idea about NBTHK European and US branchs involving is great. As I see a lot of difficulties, and Grey already addressed some of them.

 

I would personally want to know an approximation of shipping costs for 5 sets to Finland (or even for 1 set), I would need it in order to calculate VAT per set + adding the possible shipping costs inside Finland. So I would have some kind of actual price that I could say to those who are intrested.

 

I just browsed through my old US book purchase receipts and I roughly calculated that 2 sets might be 75$ shipping cost to Finland, one set would probably be around 40-50$. I'm sure 5 sets won't be 5X40$ but it'll surely be expensive as it will be so heavy. Now if NBTHK Europe would handle the shipping & VAT, I think we Europeans would save a lot as shipping big bulks within Europe is a lot cheaper than shipping overseas.

 

I still think it's a great idea to offer this excellent book as low priced high quality copy.

[Nickupero]

I'd be interested in one... anyone else in Montreal so we can up that number?

[hxv]

One copy for me, please.

 

Hoanh

[Adrian]

You are not going to sell 150 sets now. That is pretty obvious.

So my intention is to push for selling them about $100 plus shipping with a small royalty for Markus..and leaving the other 50 copies to be sold and there covering the main royalties, seller fees etc.

Not cast in stone, but it's not rocket science either.

 

Brian

 

That makes sense, unless we manage to pre-sell all 150 copies. I know it sounds over-optimistic at this point, but yet again the whole project was considered a bit far-fetched not so long ago :D

[Dr Fox]

Brian

 

Further to talks with Ian C, UK distribution can be taken care of with one mail drop, we also feel a pass on method of delivery, will avoid added postal costs in the majority of cases.

 

Denis.

[Brian]

It isn't as simple as that. The printers don't handle shipping at all. So basically, we would need everyone to pay someone, who will pay the printers. That would cover the book printing.

Then.....the printers need to ship the entire lot to one place. However, everyone then needs to pay someone else for the shipping, which will be different for every place it is sent to. And that someone needs to send them to everyone...or the people who will redistribute. And that means more people paying other people. And multiple payments.

You get the idea? There is a lot to work out.

It is impossible to pay the printers for everything...and someone has to store the extra 50 copies and sell them.

And some people will pay for insurance, and some not....and every country has different shipping rates.

So this is why everything is taking time.

What we need is book fulfillment. This is where a company stores the books, and ships them on demand anywhere they need to go.

There are a lot of book fulfillment places out there...but also logistics to work out regarding who pays who and who controls the orders.

 

Brian

[Adrian]

OR what we need is 150 people actually sending in the money :D

Then everything will be much easier.

 

One option to explore is to ask Markus if he would accept at least a part of the royalties in books (calculated at printing cost, of course). This is sometimes done even with larger editions, but of course we have to consider that this is a very small market so it would take time to sell those copies.

 

P.S. Anyway, I see that Brian figured out that no printing company would touch shipping, I remember that not so long ago there I was being told with great authority that this is possible and so on :D O tempora...

[pcfarrar]

P.S. Anyway, I see that Brian figured out that no printing company would touch shipping, I remember that not so long ago there I was being told with great authority that this is possible and so on :D O tempora...

 

There are companies around that will do the lot:

 

http://www.yps-publishing.co.uk/index.php

[Alex A]

Lots,

 

http://www.printondemand-worldwide.com/

 

Digital, I know, but maybe the only way you will make this idea viable.

 

Alex

[Brian]

Yeah...I found more publishers that will handle fulfillment than those that won't.

Just a pity that the one with a good price for offset printing doesn't.

 

Brian

[Alex A]

Considering the insides are black only, maybe its something worth thinking about. Digital is usually fine for black text. As far as the covers go, if the design is digital friendly, then that should be ok too. Most offset printers will give a good price when there slack, unfortunately, when there not, they will charge a very similar price for black only and full colour, its still down to the time on the press.

 

Alex.

[Alex A]

Just a thought, why all the logistical issues?, get the books printed in the US, get them delivered to a member in the US, that person then posts the books. Your thinking that's a bit ridiculous?... if that person got say $15 for each book posted, just as an incentive to make it worth there while. No rush. A nice earner. I wouldn't mind paying the extra, just a thought.

 

Alex.

[Brian]

Read back a few posts to Grey's reply for a reason why few will be willing to be "that guy"

It's a big responsibility. Who wants to pack and weigh about 50-75 parcels, and be the one to get all the "where is my book?" queries later?

 

Brian

[Alex A]

For a tenner a book Brian, I would :D . The printers would need to go a step further, aswell as bulk wrap, they would need to box each book for further distribution. I understand your concerns though.

 

Alex

[Markus]

When we are now start to talk about digital print and on demand, than I think it might

be just easier if I reformat the whole two volumes and upload them again on Lulu for

hardcover print and set the price lower?

 

Back then the price was set to get some of the time and amount of work back I invested

in compiling them. I was not aware that the availability of the initial hardcover set (which

is of decent quality) is not given at all for the abroad (US) market and that the price is

that discouraging (with Hawleys in mind people get for USD 400 and similar figures).

 

So maybe this is a compromise. Well, people which bought the initial set might be angry to

get them too early and paid a higher price but maybe this is just how it goes... That means

everybody waiting now for a (not super high-end quality but still decent enough for "just" 900

pages of plain b/w text without any pictures) hardcover set for a better price might be happy

as all the problems with shipping and handling would disappear at once with Lulu.

 

Well, just some thoughts. Apart from that, please bear in mind that I am on holiday from

Friday onwards and will not be able to participate in the discussion until July 14th. But I

will be around at least tomorrow Thursday.

 

Cheers.

[John A Stuart]

Not to snuff out this project. I have the BOD hardcover set and am quite satisfied with it, which, is why it was so important to me that this new prospective venture be of such an high quality. Otherwise I failed to see the point. John

[Markus]

I have only one book published in hardcover at Lulu yet but I have to say that the

quality is not much but noticeably inferior to that of BoD. Just to clarify this before

the discussion goes on.

 

Regardless of my post above, I am of course still with this project.

[Alex A]

As good as an idea as it was, its obviously a difficult thing to pull off. Knowing that, im happy in either direction. I cant see much difference in black offset text and digital text.

 

Alex.

[Jussi Ekholm]

I have to agree with John. I also have the BoD set and I'm very happy with it.

 

And similarily the high quality was the thing that drew me to this project, of course we still haven't the consensus what high quality will contain. I would be up for super high end quality print that would give Markus good profit and be sold at high price. This would be like book collectors edition, but I understand very few would sign up for a book like this.

 

I had my skeptism for 100$ set being possible, as there will be expenses, and as it appears it will be quite hard to accomplish. And I still think that even the BoD version of your book is a bargain for all the information it contains. For 260€ you get a ton of very valuable information.

 

I don't think anyone could be mad for you lowering the price Markus. After all the work you have put in the book, you deserve to sell as many of these you can in this small market. I'm just kinda puzzled that people don't want to invest in this great reference.

 

If the Lulu option (which in my mind might be very wise option) is chosen, then there would not be need for middlemen in countries as Lulu provides affordable shipping all over the world. I've ordered Markus's other books through Lulu and I remember the shipping costs being quite low.

[Dr Fox]

It seems that if comments don't gush full approval for this project, then someone is attempting some sort of sabotage! Not so! A lot of work and time has been spent on this and that has to be applauded.

 

In April this year the proposal was a reprint of ‘The Index Of Japanese Sword smiths’. I along with others was puzzled at such an idea, and voiced the same, mainly because the existing book set seemed adequate, but my statements at the time were countered with:

 

To produce 2 hard cover copies, of Marcus’s books. Hard copies not being available.

These books were to be of a superior print quality to the originals.

The prices, to be significantly lower than the originals.

Since that originality, it transpires that, there were hard covers of the originals available! The superior print quality is not yet finalised. And the price was at first, not available, then $85, on to $100 now with doubts being cast that this price is over optimistic.

 

Personally I believe that this idea when proposed, should have been noted, and the background work done. Then put forward as a viable project, with formats, prices. Then the members should have been canvassed, as to their willingness to commit. As is was, the topic was hammered from every angle, the greater amount of organisers time, spent in countering posts that would have been self explanatory at a later date.

Tell me if I am wrong and out of line here? 4 months on, and realistically no further?

Denis.

 

The Camel was a Horse designed by a committee.

[Markus]

Tell me if I am wrong and out of line here? 4 months on, and realistically no further?

 

I guess we will stay at this point when we are not able to get at least somewhere close to 150 participants.

As stated in one of my first posts, I sold surprisingly few copies of the Index and wondered where all those

future participants would magically come from. I am not mad at all about selling to few copies but I was asking

myself for the reasons and came up with the following:

 

1. Too expensive.

2. Too special.

3. English version not available in hardcover (although I added this option when I published the set but it does not work).

4. Not enough publicity.

5. Quality too low.

 

Now with all the threads over all the months, point 4 can be ruled out. Regarding point 2, I must point out that hardly any book of

mine sold over 150 times in that period of time (but maybe this can be put down to me being a lousy author )

Of course there is interest but 100 real buyers might be the "end of the road". Even now as points 1, 3, 4 and 5 have been solved

by those (a cordial thank you) pushing the project in general and the price down to a IMHO very reasonable number for this set, we

are where we are some months ago. Leaves a strong point 2...

 

So for my part I thought - with those abroad waiting now for a hardcover set in mind - I am able to work at least on points 1 and 3

by adding a lower priced hardcover set on Lulu. I did not want to sabotage the project.

[John A Stuart]

Hi Markus, What do you mean it does not work in English for the hardcover version? Mine was in English and mimiced the e-version. Did I get lucky or have I missed the point? John

[cabowen]

I look upon these types of indexes as data. Data that can be searched, mined, collated, and organized as I desire. I cannot see the utility of this information, beyond the most basic, in print form. By having it on the computer, where it can be manipulated in myriad ways, one can fully realize the potential of all Markus' hard work. A novel is one thing, but data is another. I personally can't see the value in a hard copy, at any price, if there is an electronic version available.

[John A Stuart]

Chris, I have both and when at the computer use that one. I am a book lover, though and I would always prefer to have a real book rather than some form of e-copy on tablets, readers or computers. Of course that's just me and not an endorsement for any particular version. John

[Brian]

Chris,

I find my e-books are seldom where my swords are at any one time

No..I still prefer a proper book.

 

Guys...the issues here aren't about price. We can easily still do $100 plus shipping. It is only the logistics that need to be sorted out, and I feel that can be done given more time. The price is easily achievable.

 

For me, it was about a high quality book that would be a collectors item too. There is a big difference between a regular hard cover book with normal covers and paper...and a high quality silky white page bound and sewn book (that won't come apart when open flat in 2 years time) and has cloth cover with embossed or gilt title. That to me is a nice book worth having.

 

You can get that too with digital printing through a proper printer. They offer it, and it is cheap, and you can do 50 copies if you like. And the quality is great. But someone convinced people that it needs to be offset...so I went with that. Digital for a book like this is still high quality, and on good paper, would be a superior product.

 

I think it is the binding, paper and cover that set this aside from the current hard bound version. And of course price. A nice looking serious book at much less than the current version would sell imho. I do think we can sell 150 copies..with the NMB and the various organizations out there. Sword shows..etc etc.

 

As for price. I don't know about many out there, but things are tough. And with our currency here down about 20% to the $....it is getting very, very tight. A $100 can maybe be found to spend on a book. But 200 Euro or more is just way too many percent of a monthly salary to be comfortable here. Hence the project.

 

We need to realize we don't have a time limit either. Yes..we will lose some interest as time goes by...but we will gain other interest. And with the vast netwrk out there....Twitter, Facebook, eBay, JSSUS, NCJSC, NBTHK....we should easily find a market.

 

Not abandoning it. Just looking more into how to store and ship them. I still feel either digital or offset can be done at a good price, and with a product that will stand out from the current offerings.

 

Brian