Dave R Posted June 20, 2013 Report Posted June 20, 2013 Hi everyone, as a new to Nihonto collecter I have a question regarding a recent aquisition. I lately bought a Shin Shinto Hira-zukuri style blade with a nagasa of 16 inches, ie 40 centimetres, which is well over the standard length for a Tanto. Would this be regarded as an O-tanto or a Wakizashi? As an O-tanto would it have a particular function or just be an idiosyncrasy of the original owner. Would it's koshirae be closer to a Wakizashi's than a tanto. I have tried to use the search function to hunt up on O-tanto but keep getting a "no result". Comments invited and welcomed, and thanks for any input.
cabowen Posted June 20, 2013 Report Posted June 20, 2013 Wakizashi or ko-wakizashi....O-tanto is usually reserved for blades 1 shaku to slightly above. This is too large to call it an o-tanto.
runagmc Posted June 20, 2013 Report Posted June 20, 2013 FYI, O-tanto are also known as sunnobi tanto... might help in your search...
1tallsword Posted June 20, 2013 Report Posted June 20, 2013 what you have is a wakizashi. in order to be a tanto it must be under 1 shaku aprox. 11.93 inches... 1 to 2 shaku or 11.93 inches to 23.86 is wakizashi ... over 2 shako is long sword (Daito) hope this helps, Jeremy.
Gunome Posted June 20, 2013 Report Posted June 20, 2013 Hello, The hira zukuri shape of the blade is tricky, but at 40 cm it is a wakizashi. I had an early shinto waki with this shape and same nagasa.
Dave R Posted December 16, 2013 Author Report Posted December 16, 2013 This Wakizashi is now back from being polished.... as per my request it has not been taken too far, I think you can always take more off but you cannot put it back on again.
ROKUJURO Posted December 16, 2013 Report Posted December 16, 2013 Dave, the polish does not look very convincing, maybe it is the photos? Was the blade polished in Japan and did it pass SHINSA? Have you got a new SHIRASAYA and HABAKI made?
Dave R Posted December 16, 2013 Author Report Posted December 16, 2013 My photo's do not do justice to the polish, and as I said, I did not want it taking too far. The polisher is in this country and Japanese trained. Regarding the koshirae, I am putting it into the old saya, which has been cleaned and putting the rest of it together from original parts as far as possible. I am a sword collector, rather than a blade collector so am not too fussed about shirasaya, which is also why I did not want too high a polish. Lets face it, the ultimate result of repeatedly, highly polishing a blade is.... a wafer thin piece of scrap metal.
cabowen Posted December 17, 2013 Report Posted December 17, 2013 My photo's do not do justice to the polish, and as I said, I did not want it taking too far. The polisher is in this country and Japanese trained. Regarding the koshirae, I am putting it into the old saya, which has been cleaned and putting the rest of it together from original parts as far as possible. I am a sword collector, rather than a blade collector so am not too fussed about shirasaya, which is also why I did not want too high a polish. Lets face it, the ultimate result of repeatedly, highly polishing a blade is.... a wafer thin piece of scrap metal. Let's clear up a few misconceptions: First, there are only two professionally trained sword polishers in the US: Bob Benson in Hawaii and Jimmy Hayashi in San Francisco, Ca. "Japanese trained" usually means successful completion of an apprenticeship program under a master polisher. It takes 8-10 years. Spending a few months in Japan is not considered "Japanese trained". Second, there is no such thing as "too high a polish". There is only a correct and proper polish, and one that is not correct. A correct polish, done by a professional, only removes what is necessary. There are three primary reasons we see large amounts of steel being removed: if the sword was not cared for and/or abused and there are chips and/or deep rust to remove, or, the prior polish was poorly done (usually by an amateur) and there are waves and uneven lines in the surface that need correcting, or, the polisher is an amateur and removes more than is necessary (quite common). Finally, a shirasaya is the correct way to store a blade not being used. If you are concerned about blade preservation, I would suggest using a properly made shirasaya to protect the blade from rust. I would also suggest using a professional polisher so as to eliminate the unnecessary removal of steel that directly or indirectly, is almost always the result of using an amateur.
Dave R Posted December 17, 2013 Author Report Posted December 17, 2013 Hmmm, what makes you think I am in the US. Btw, the polisher I use also polishes for the personal collection of someone I respect and who is an acknowledged authority on Japanese arms and armour... and who unlike you has seen the work first hand. Now I am not wanting to flame people here, I am on this site to learn and share, but it is a bit disturbing and offputting the confrontational way some of you post!
Brian Posted December 17, 2013 Report Posted December 17, 2013 Ok folks...enough about the professional vs amateur polishing. We have all discussed it to death. We all know what swords were professionally polished, and which weren't. No need to flog a dead horse, and no use trying to convince anyone to change their minds. Our position has been made clear, now it is up to people to decide for themselves. I am definitely not going down this road endlessly. Drop it now. Back to the sword. Nice sugata. Definitely a wakizashi. Brian 1
Marius Posted December 17, 2013 Report Posted December 17, 2013 it is a bit disturbing and offputting the confrontational way some of you post! Dave, Chris is just stating facts. Nothing confrontational about that.
cabowen Posted December 17, 2013 Report Posted December 17, 2013 Yes, just the facts. Wasn't trying to be confrontational. I assumed you are in the US. Unless you are in Japan or Canada, then, from what I understand, there are no other professionally trained polishers to be found anywhere other than the aforementioned countries. And there are many veteran collectors who have used amateur polishers. That doesn't really say as much about amateur polishers as it does about many veteran collectors. Just trying to clear a few things up. My apologies if I have caused offense.
Brian Posted December 17, 2013 Report Posted December 17, 2013 UK, I believe. Can we continue..... - B -
pcfarrar Posted December 17, 2013 Report Posted December 17, 2013 We also have a polisher in the UK who recently achieved Nyusen in the NBTHK polishing competition. 1
Darcy Posted December 24, 2013 Report Posted December 24, 2013 Sword world has been traditionally bad, due to pissing matches where people get confused on theory vs truth and also the old guard taking advantage of the noobs financially. Both of these attitudes drive people away. It's easy to get into a less than warm mode and you have to realize that they just need a bit more embracing vs. textbook bopping on the head. I think we have a duty to warm it up and embrace these guys, dispense with the desire to argue to the finest hair we can split on things and be a bit more kind in general. . When you read watch forums it's quite ridiculous the amount of support they give each other in their collecting. But then again they are there chiefly to enable each other before the wife finds out heh. Anyway I am curious to see more of this sword, if the hamon can be exposed more and what it contains. 1
b.hennick Posted December 24, 2013 Report Posted December 24, 2013 Great post and in the Christmas spirit!
Nihonto Chicken Posted January 7, 2014 Report Posted January 7, 2014 Given the current state of polish apparent in the photos, this blade looks like an excellent candidate for some concerted uchiko work to bring out the hamon and hada. Link below to numerous posts on this consideration: http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/search.php?keywords=power+uchiko&terms=all&author=Nihonto+Chicken&sc=1&sf=all&sk=t&sd=d&sr=posts&st=0&ch=300&t=0&submit=Search
Dr Fox Posted January 7, 2014 Report Posted January 7, 2014 Oh wow! Amateur polishing and now Uchiko polish. Deja vu?
estcrh Posted January 7, 2014 Report Posted January 7, 2014 TO UCHIKO OR NOT TO UCHIKO: ILL EFFECTS OF UCHIKO IN REGULAR SWORD CARE AND MAINTENANCE.* S. Alexander Takeuchi, Ph.D. Department of Sociology University of North Alabama January 24, 2004 Since I am not a polisher nor a Nihon-to appraiser, what I think personally about this topic may not have much merit, especially after many experts including real togi-shi (i.e., polisher) have already explained elsewhere possible ill effects of abusing uchiko. Here, I just want to share what I have learned from one of Japan’s "Ningen Kokuho" (i.e., Living National Treasure – the highest government recognized honor for a traditional craftsman in Japan) togi-shi, Kohkan Nagayama, through his books. In a book interview, Kohkan Nagayama (1994[1973]), one of the Living National Treasure togi-shi in Japan, rather strongly recommends *against* regular use of uchiko on finely polished antique blades. He explains that the major purpose of using uchiko when cleaning *antique Nihon-to* is to remove old oil. However, no matter how good the quality of the uchiko may be, the uchigumori-to powder repeatedly rubbed against a finely polished blade (that skilled togi-shi worked so hard on) will eventually dull the subtle activities in ha and ji-hada over time.... Thus, Nagayama clearly says that it would be ideal if we could remove old oil on finely polished antique Nihon-to blades without ever using uchiko. In his retrospective essays, Nagayama (2000) also mentions about the ill effects of repeated and prolonged application of uchiko even on the blades that are still in the process of being polished. There, he explains that if the entire process of polishing takes too long, it will require the blade to be oiled at the end of each day until it is finally finished: However, this will also require the use of uchiko every beginning of the day to first remove the oil applied on the blade... Since uchiko is "finely ground polishing stone" after all, its use should be kept minimal (even for the purpose of cleaning and maintaining the blade) in order not to scratch or "kill" the polished activities in the steel. Now as to the "widely spread misinformation" (in Nagayama’s and several other Nihon-to authorities’ opinions such as Ogasawara, 1994) that "repeated use of uchiko on a polished blade will make the blade look even better," Nagayama (2000) also clearly denies its validity and even condemns the polishers who would give such an account to their clients. According to Nagayama, even though laypersons may not be able to tell, polishers ought to know better whether or not another polisher has cut corners in doing his job. If the blade is polished skillfully and meticulously, it will much less likely loose its finely brought-up activities and other aesthetic characteristics over years: Such a blade will only get "tasteful" over years of cleaning with uchiko *only because* all the activities aesthetic characteristics are already brought up properly. In other words, Nihon-to blades must look their best when they have just been polished properly. Therefore, when a polisher tells his client that "the blade will look better over years if it is cleaned with uchiko regularly," he is admitting that his polishing job is not good and [taking advantage of the naive clients by] using such a misconception as an excuse for his poor work... It is still a question if other reputable polishers will totally agree with Nagayama’s rather strong assertions against the use of uchiko. However, I tend to believe there is some truth in these strong opinions when such opinions come from a professional who has achieved in his profession the highest honor and recognition that his national government designates... References: Nagayama, Kohkan. (1994[1973]). "Togi." [Polishing.] In Tadashi Oono (Ed.) Nihon-to shokunin shokudan. [The tales from Nihon-to craftsmen.] (1st Ed.) Pp. 57-72. Tokyo, Japan: Kogei Shuppan. ISBN 4-7694-0051-9. Nagayama, Kohkan. (2000). Nihon-to wo Togu: Togishi no waza, me, kokoro. [Polishing Nihon-to: The skills, eyes and spirit of togi-shi]. Tokyo, Japan: Yuzankaku. ISBN4-639-01554-2. Ogasawara, Nobuo. (1994). Nihon_to no kansho kiso chishiki. [The fundamental knowledge of Japanese sword appreciation.] Tokyo, Japan: Shibun Do. ISBN4-7694-0053-5. [Note. Nobuo Ogasawara is one of Japan’s leading experts in the academic study of Nihon-to. He is also the chief executive officer of the Nihon-to division at the Tokyo National Art Museum.] ********** *The original article appeared on the old Bugei Sword Forums in 2003. This version has been edited slightly from the original post. Copyright © by S. Alexander Takeuchi, Ph.D. 1
Stephen Posted January 7, 2014 Report Posted January 7, 2014 this old saw? out of polish dull cant see much sword with little value, uchiko the hell out of it> newly polished balde...no never put the ball to it. 1
Brian Posted January 7, 2014 Report Posted January 7, 2014 Agree with Stephen. No need to over analyze further...well covered elsewhere. Brian
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