settsu no kami minamoto tadayuki ??

[1tallsword]

Hello fellows I just purchased this sword and have translated the mei to settsu no kami minamoto tadayuki . my questions are is that correct? and in your guys opinions is the mei correct? looks good to me. also i have this smith listed 1660-1730?? several generations is this correct? thank you in advance , Jeremy

[Dick Tait]

Hello Jeremy,

Hawley (P.373) has two smiths listed signing this way: TA165 = 2nd generation (1684) & TA167 = 3rd generation (1711).

There is oshigata of TA165 which doesn't match your sword. So probably 3rd generation - lived in Omi.

Regards,

RichT

[1tallsword]

thank you so much for your help and knowledge, jeremy

[cabowen]

Nakago and mei are rather crudely done and I wouldn't be surprised if it is gimei. I would compare to authentic examples to verify.

[ROKUJURO]

Jeremy,

 

if you have a close look on the TSUBA: on the photos it looks quite crudely made. The TSUKA-ITO (cotton?) is wrapped in a wrong way: in case this starts to become loose, the whole thing falls apart!

 

Maybe someone has 'combined' parts to present a complete package.

[1tallsword]

thank you jean and chris. yes i had my concerns and everything you fellows have said confirms my thoughts. i opted out of buying it as im collecting only original pieces. its always great to get a second and third opinion just encase, cheers,jeremy

[Kai-Gunto]

I dont like the ito-maki. Its new and is not done correct ,IMO.

[DarrylDkrs]

Dear fellows, I am an absolute newbie. Since my son is a real Nihonto-Lover, i thought it would be a great idea to give him something to maybe start a passion with. So I did something stupid and bought a Wakizashi......via the internet....OMG....I know, probably not the brightest idea. Til it arrives, I have some time to prepare, find out something about the blade, get some literature for him to start and hopefully attach him to his first sword with the proper knowledge.

 

During my search I found this rather old thread and i hope You don't mind i join in (if it's a problem maybe Admin can move it as an own thread?).

 

I found several SETTSU NO KAMI MINAMOTO NO TADAYUKI (as stated above). Now i have Problems to determine which Generation it is and if it's real at all. Concerning Gimei or not i heavily relied on the NBTHK Tokubetsu Hozon Origami and the fact that it was sold by a Japan-Based commercial seller. Tsuba and blade seem to be from one Blacksmith as far as i could decipher the Kanji.

Any thoughts on this?

 

Thanks for Your help.

[Franco D]

To help get you started. Your choice of purchasing from a Japanese dealer with a Tokubetsu Hozon origami were probably good decisions considering that your homework is being done in hindsight. 

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=settsu+no+kami+minamoto+tadayuki&rlz=1C1VDKB_enUS1031US1031&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#ip=1

 

http://nihontocraft.com/2015_NBTHK_Nionto_Tosogu_Shinsa_Standards.html

 

 

 

[DarrylDkrs]

Thank You for the Links. Most of the stuff i already found. My Problem is now that i can't distinct between the different meis.

 

I figured out that it must be either:

 

https://nihontoclub.com/smiths/TAD335     (1684-1688)

https://nihontoclub.com/smiths/TAD337     (1711-1716)

 

Here I have an ad where they say it's 2nd Generation. The last Kanji (Yuki) looks more similar to the one i have. But to be honest I'm a bit overwhelmed by the Kanji:

https://www.aoijapan.net/katana-settsu-kami-minamoto-tadayuki-2nd-generation　/

 

I found another one here, but no distinction made here which generation:

https://www.christies.com/en/lot/lot-2079019

 

I have just a few pictures of mei to compare and i could only find one here (see below), which is assigned to TAD335 (2nd Generation)

 

All in all I'm totally confused. 

[Franco D]

My collecting days have all but come to an end now, so I've parted with my signature books like Fujishiro, sorry. The mei guys here on the message board will probably be along to help. Building a good library is a must for the serious nihonto collector student.

[SteveM]

Hello Darryl,

 

The name on the tsuba is 正阿弥重信 (Shōami Shigenobu). 

 

The Christies auction site you linked to indicates they think the sword they are selling was the product of the 2nd generation, although they mention it contrasts with other examples of the 2nd gen. 

 

From the bottom of that page

"The son of Tachibana no Tadayuki, Minamoto no Tadayuki worked during the Genroku period (1688- 1704) and was awarded the honorary title Settsu no kami. This unusually sober blade contrasts with the more flamboyant style seen in most of his other work."

 

I don't know if your son has any books yet, but you can check on the recent posts (or the FAQ) for some book suggestions for your son. Care and maintenance of the sword is essential so it doesn't rust.

[DarrylDkrs]

Thank You so much @SteveMfor that info.

 

So - if it's not Gimei - it's most probably 3rd Generation, correct? Is there any way to find out?

 

You see, I'm totally lost with the Kanji. I could have sworn that the name on the Tsuba would be almost identical to the one on the sword.

 

I bought a book for my son from Markus Sesko. Since we are German i took the German Version of "Leitfaden zum Japanischen Schwert". All the other books were either not available or far too expensive right now.

[SteveM]

I don't think we can definitively say whether its 2nd or 3rd. Actually, it might even be difficult for the NBTHK to say definitively which generation it is. In the Fujishiro index (one of the foundational Japanese swordsmith indexes), it says "3rd Generation Tadayuki signed with the same mei, but examples of his work haven't been seen".  Note there is some ambiguity in whether it is Fujishiro saying he personally hasn't seen any, or if the 3rd generation swords haven't been seen by anyone. Anyway, even in Japan there seems to be a lack of information on the 3rd .

 

In Tokuno's index (an index from another well-known sword scholar) he says the 3rd generation's swords are characterized by their irregular undulating hamon (gunome midare), but he provides no samples of the mei. I can only guess that he too had no access to any photographs of the mei of the 3rd generation. So, just as with the Fujishiro comment, the Tokuno comment is almost too vague to be of any use.  

 

I know its frustrating, but its a good lesson in nihontō. Sometimes you just have to embrace the uncertainty. Until there is a sword scholar who comes and provides solid attributes or photographs of the mei for the 3rd generation vs. the 2nd, we'll just have to live with the uncertainty. Unfortunately, the smiths who aren't super big names do not get studied as much. And the quality of the work between the 2nd and the 3rd generation is probably so similar that there is not really any value in differentiating between the 2nd and 3rd, other than to satisfy the curiosity of collectors like us.  

 

The Markus Sesko book is excellent - I think everyone on this site will agree. Good choice. 

[Geraint]

Dear Darryl.

 

In all our commenting about the sword we have omitted to mention that you have done an amazing thing for your son, a true Nihonto, in polish, with koshirae and papers.  That's quite a start and I hope he appreciates what you have done.  You don't mention his age but please do point him to the information on care and handling, and if possible get in touch with a Japanese sword society near you where he can see many others and learn.

 

In this sword he already has a lead into a significant group of swordsmiths which in turn will move to a grasp of Shinto v Koto and also a signed tsuba which can generate another line of interest.  He's going to have lots of exploring to do which hopefully he will love.  He doesn't need all the answers and as Steve says it's where we are with the information.  First and foremost it is the feeling when you hold the sword in your hand.

 

All the best.

[DarrylDkrs]

@SteveM

As far as i see it the only thing that we can see is, that especially on the last Kanji "Yuki" there is a clear visible difference: the little "Hook" to the left at the southern end of the vertical line. 

 

I have now seen 3 of the Meis with this "Hook" (2 commercial sellers and the one i bought) and only one foto with a Mei that does not show this "Hook". 

 

So one might conclude: if 3rd Generation is obviously quite rare then maybe the one without the "Hook" on the Yuki could be the 3rd Generation?

 

What i find very remarkable is that both 2nd and 3rd Generation worked only 4 respectively 5 Years??? Can this be correct? How can you become "Settsu no kami" (which was an honourable title for a quite good blacksmith?) when you only work so few years? 

 

@Geraint he's 17 and he will have 1 year for him to show being trustworthy enough to handle this nihonto alone (needs to be 18 in Germany to own it legally). During that year we will handle the blade together and i hope that he understands, what was (and will be) necessary to have this blade survive almost 400 years in such a condition. But I am sure he will dive in as expected, since he already made his first own knife last year together with me (see Photo). He knows how a modern blade is made, he underwent all the struggles. I think he can capture how much more of an Art it is to make a blade from IronSand, make your own Tamahagane, select the different kinds of steel, stack them and then forge them without burning the carbon and especially: forge the blade not cut or grind it. And he already made the experience what happens if the blade is left in the leather sheath for a long time.... 

[SteveM]

8 hours ago, DarrylDkrs said:

So one might conclude: if 3rd Generation is obviously quite rare then maybe the one without the "Hook" on the Yuki could be the 3rd Generation?

 

That is a reasonable hypothesis, but I also wouldn't completely discount the possibility that the length of the "hook" part is just a slight anomaly on that one sword, and isn't of any great significance. There just isn't enough information to determine what is an acceptable range of signatures for either the 2nd or 3rd generation. 

 

Regarding the length of time each smith worked, I think you should look at the dates in Sesko as a range of when that smith produced his best, most representative works. It doesn't necessarily mean that the smith never touched a sword or a hammer outside of those dates. Also, its  possible that the 2nd generation worked alongside of his father for many years (possibly even making swords for his father) and then received permission to use the title "Settsu no kami" only after his father passed away. Unfortunately there isn't enough information to make hard conclusions. 

[Geraint]

Fabuluos to see such work from a young maker!  Please give him my congratulations.

 

All the best.

[DarrylDkrs]

Quite a long time ago.... the sword still is in Japan... story too long to tell, I'm afraid. 

 

But now with Sayagaki. 

 

Can anyone assist with translating? Google photo translation already gave up😂. 

[SteveM]

摂州摂津守源忠行
六字有銘而忠行二代也年代元禄頃小板目鍛ヘニ
丸キ互乃目主調ノ乱刃ノ作風ヲ示ス佳品也

長壱尺五寸

歳甲辰卯月
探山識

 

Settsu Province "Lord of Settsu Minamoto Tadayuki"

Six character signature of Tadayuki 2nd. Circa Genroku era. An excellent piece showing us

koitame hada, with rounded, gunome-midareba hamon.

 

Length 1 shaku 5 sun

April 2024

Tanzan

[DarrylDkrs]

Thank You so much Steve, 

 

so, is that Sayagaki contributing anything to the sword? What can we deduct from that brief description? 

 

At least now we know whether 2nd or 3rd Generation 😁. 

[Brian]

Tanobe sensei.
https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/18908-need-for-sayagaki/

 

[DarrylDkrs]

Thank you, Brian! 

 

Am I correct when I assume that the wording "an excellent piece" is a more subjective part of the sayagaki? 

 

Also: i tried to find out what the title "Settsu no kami" means. Any insights on that? 

[SteveM]

Settsu is the old name of a province in Japan. It roughly corresponds to Osaka and a bit of Hyogo prefecture. "Kami" is an honorary title - means something like Governor or Lord - and these titles were awarded by the government to swordsmiths who had achieved as certain status.

So Settsu-no-Kami is Lord of Settsu province. 

 

And "an excellent piece/work" is Tanobe's personal opinion.

 

The bits before that (koitame with rounded gunome-midareba hamon) are some features that one would expect to see in a Settsu Tadayuki sword. So he is confirming the work and the signature. 

[xiayang]

13 minutes ago, SteveM said:

Lord of Settsu province

 

It's probably worth pointing out that from the Muromachi period onward these titles were essentially purely honorary and do not imply any administrative powers whatsoever.

 

A modern-day US equivalent might be something like the honorary title of Colonel, which does not make the bearer is a high-ranking military officer either.

 

[Bugyotsuji]

By a stretch of the imagination you can see that since 'kami' means 'protector' or 'guardian', this smith must have worked well and hard, and eventually inherited (or was awarded) this title, suggesting that he has become the new keeper of the tradition, a 'sensei', a recognized authority or overseer of swordsmiths in that region.