Shinogi zukuri tanto?

[Brian]

Hi all,

 

Took a chance on this one on eBay (cheap enough to take one of those chances we usually discourage ) Will be a while before it arrives, but thought I would ask some questions in the meantime.

I know shinogi zukuri tanto are unusual, and usually are the point of a broken katana or waki. This one looks to me to be complete according to the nakago, but I could be mistaken. It was listed as mumei, but I think I can see a tachi mei (although I don't expect to get a translation before I can take a better pic)

It is a slender tanto, but not thick enough to be a yoroi doshi IMHO. Doesn't appear to be reshaped, and looks like it was meant to have a shinogi and yokote. Do others disagree, and are there any comments about whether or not it is probable that it is original as seen?

I have seen pics of a very few shinogi zukuri tanto, but none as slender as this one.

Btw..anyone have any hints on the tsuba school from the limited pic? Fuchi looks higo to me.

 

Thanks,

Brian

[Mark]

It looks nice a nice Higo mounted sword. maybe a boys sword or retired samurai's sword..... hard to see the mei but if i had to "guess" i would say Bizen Kuni Osafune Ju Nin, if so maybe the other side says Yokoyama Sukesada

 

Mark

[Brian]

Thank you Mark,

 

I think I may have missed the obvious again

When you see a thinnish, slender tanto with shinogi zukuri, then take a look at the possibility of a boys' sword. Looking at it now, that is a definite probability. I don't know much about retired samurai swords though

I'll have to wait for it to arrive, and post more pics. But your suggestions seem likely. I don't see a mei continued on the omote though, but maybe it is very worn.

 

Regards,

Brian

[kazarena]

Hi Brian,

 

I've got a very similar tanto with shinogi-zukuri. My first guess was the tanto to be a point of a broken sword (sugata looked somewhat incomplete, but maybe it's just because I'm not used to shinogi-zukuri tanto). However, condition and shape of nakago (similar to yours what I can gather from the pictures, but with more pronounced kengyo nakagojiri) could be as well suggesting it wasn't shortened. So I stopped at 'the boy's sword' version.

 

Regards,

Stan N.

[Brian]

Thanks for the info Stan. How about some pics of yours?

I am definitely leaning towards a boys sword. The nakago just doesn't give the impression of having been altered from the pics.

Btw..nice website you have there, I have added it to the links pages along with a few new links. Great to have an Irish Nihonto website.

 

Regards,

Brian

[kazarena]

  Quote

Thanks for the info Stan. How about some pics of yours?

Brian, I have some pics here: http://nihontoclub.com/node/143

No pics of saya though: it's under restoration at the moment.

 

  Quote

Btw..nice website you have there, I have added it to the links pages along with a few new links. Great to have an Irish Nihonto website.

Thank you! Really appreciated.

 

Regards,

Stan N.

[raaay]

Hi Brian

 

hope you dont mind me posting ! my "Tanto" on your post

 

here is some pics of the blade and the mounts .

 

i have been also thinking it may be cut down from a waki or something!! or perhaps also a boys sword ?

 

also has a suragi tang and the nagsa is 280mm

 

regards

ray

[Janrudolph]

Good day, Brian! I did not want to come in to the site with my tanto yet, but seeing your post above, I thought I must show it. Please see the pic. It seems to be still in good condition, thin, slender, ridgeline present, even yokote is there, gold fern-like leaves on both sides of the fuchi, smooth rounded kashira, worn but undamaged wrapping. Normal nakago, no signature, no date. Length of blade: 285 mm. Sori: 2 1/2 mm. Johan

[Janrudolph]

[Bugyotsuji]

Ha, I have a very similar boy's sword Koshirae, but with a tsunagi blade inside. 

[JH Lee]

What exactly is a boy's sword?  Just a smaller version suitable for a child?  How can one distinguish between a blade that happens to be slender and a blade that was made intentionally for a child?

[Bugyotsuji]

稚児差 Chigozashi "children's sword" this site says in English: http://www.sword-auction.jp/ja/content/as16058-短刀：城州源家道稚児差-tanto-joshu-minamoto-iemichi

 

Here is a Giggle search on Chigozashi: https://www.google.com/search?q=稚児差+とは&ei=T5dZYMvhE4uQr7wPsbuz0AI&oq=稚児差+とは&gs_lcp=Cgdnd3Mtd2l6EAwyBQgAEM0CUODWAVjg1gFgju0BaAFwAHgAgAGXAogBpQOSAQUwLjEuMZgBAKABAaoBB2d3cy13aXrAAQE&sclient=gws-wiz&ved=0ahUKEwiLxbjo8MXvAhULyIsBHbHdDCoQ4dUDCA0

[Bugyotsuji]

The middle blade is described as a Chigo-zashi. (I have heard also them called Chigo-to.)

https://twitter.com/bizentakumi/status/1238398652860608512/photo/1

[Janrudolph]

In terms of slenderness, my "boy's tanto" measures 20 mm next to the habaki, going down to 18 mm at the centre and 16 1/2 mm next to the yokote. The blade's thickness is all of 3 mm next to the habaki, with no measureable thinning to the point. The many flowers on both sides of the tsuba look exactly like the cherry blossoms on my shin-gunto tsuba. The kashira appears to be horn. I mention all this so the information can serve as a comparison to your tanto listed at the top, Brian. Johan

[JH Lee]

But slender profile alone shouldn't qualify a blade as a chigo-zashi, should  it?  I've come across an ubu wakizashi that is ~2.8cm at the motohaba tapering to ~1.7at the sakihaba, with signs of combat damage.  Then again, it had a relatively thick kasane of ~7.5mm or so...