Few newbie questions and my first tsuba.

[Antti]

Greetings everyone!

 

I am new to this forum, and already made more formal introductions in the new member introduction-chain. But as I think this part of the forum will be my new home, just wanted to say hello to every one of you.

 

If I may start with a few questions.

 

1. Do you use some kind of a digital microscope to observe/photograph the finer details of a tsuba, or do you find a magnifying glass or a nice camera/scanner to be enough?

 

The other two questions are about my first tsuba. I added the picture as an attachment. The flash used in my friends camera makes it look really weird.

 

2. What is the mark left below the Nakago-Ana, in the Seppa Dai, , about 1mm deep. Ive often seen alterations on the edges of the Nagako-Ana, and seki gane on the top and the bottom, but this mark is outside the bottom edge. Ive seen this mark on one other tsuba I saw for sale some time ago.

 

3. The tsuba has NBTHK Hozon papers, attributing it to Toshichiku, Edo-period, Meiwa era. Akasaka style. Now he was a sword polisher, and Ive read about sword makers tsuba, armorers tsuba and mirror makers tsuba but how common is it for a polisher to make tsuba?

 

Also, if you fine people would care to comment on the tsuba I would appreciate it, I am sure I have missed something. As I said the flash we used made it look really ugly, the true color is dark blue/grey. Ive skimmed through about 40 pages of topics in the Tosogu-section, and as it is customary for a newbie to buy horrible tsuba, let me have it.

 

The tsuba wasnt that expensive, and I really just wanted something that I can actually hold in my hand and observe.

 

Thanks in advance!

[christianmalterre]

Dear Antti,

 

Welcome!

If this one here really is your´s first Tsuba?-let me confirm you made you an much better choice than many others(for an starter piece).

The composition is interesting indeed-not an mainschool piece-certainly,-but worth to inquire about.

Sidebranch Akasaka influence-i would tend to agree here...

Did you compare it with Tsuba made by Tosa-Myochin group?(you may find some stylistical parallels)

Somebody here from the members who has got the Tosa books for reference?

(if it had not already ben certified by Motherhouse-myself had placed it straight to Tosa)

 

Nice study piece!

 

Christian

[Geraint]

Welcome Antti.

 

Christian has dealt with the more difficult question; the first two are simpler. I don't think many people use a digital microscope but have a go and see what you see. It is often the case that fine quality work is confirmed by the fact that it survives examination under a magnifying glass, sometimes what looks good at first glance does not show up so well this way.

 

The mark you question at the bottom of the nakago ana is just a way of closing up the size of the ana to fit a sword better. You are right, there are a number of ways of doing this and many of them look more elegant than this one, some are added at manufacture and are indicative of specific tsuba smiths, many are the result of the tsuba being adjusted later in life to suit a specific sword.

As this tsuba is papered there is nothing to worry about.

 

Having bought your first tsuba you have probably already contracted the disease so enjoy!

[Antti]

Thank you so much Chrstian for your input. I am glad to hear my first purchase was not a total failure!

 

More info from the Tsuba and the maker. I will also supply a picture of the papers.

 

Mei: Toshichiku

Size: 7,79 x 7,16 x 0,51cm

Jidai: Edo period Meiwa Era

 

Few things from Aoi Art papers (sic).

 

Toshichiku was called Masaoki and real name was Iemon. At kyoho era, he was born at Takeya family's son. His family accompanied with Oda Nobunaga at Muramachi period. He got a job from Tokugawa family treatment 5 Ninbuchi (master of 5 person), and also he liked to make tsuba. At the time he was well known polisher.

------------------

 

Thanks Geraint for your input as well. So the the marks are made to... umm, how to say this, to "stretch" the steel a bit to make it fit. Interesting!

 

And yes I have contracted this disease, which is frightening. As I wrote to the new member introduction section, I fear this new interest will guarantee I will stay broke forever, and the scary thing is, I dont even care.

[christianmalterre]

such speaking-while reading your´s better description now-

i even have to say-this Tsuba very certainly is worth study!

If it´s really that what you wrote-it´s certainly very interesting indeed.

As i wrote-i had put it to Edo Tosa Myochin...

Don´t have the literature here-i am but certain an boardmember heading into especially this(these) group(s) can tell you more about....

Well Done!

 

Christian

[Antti]

It would be most interesting to hear more about the subject from the literature. My books dont include any expensive "out-of-print" pieces, so Ive just tried to find everything I can from the Internet. Mainly from the shibuiswords.com and such.

 

Again thank you for sharing your wisdom. The idea that my first tsuba purchase was not a disaster really lifted weight from my shoulders.

[runagmc]

I don't really collect tsuba, but for what it's worth (nothing :lol: ), I like the design of yours better than most sukashi tsuba I see...

[Soshin]

Hi Antti S.,

 

Nice to see someone new with a good papered iron open work tsuba. Often new people try to find the cheapest tsuba on eBay, purchase it, and post poor photos of it. This results in more experience collectors having to tell them they have just purchased a Chinese modern reproduction. I am sure the color of it is much better as indicated in the photo on the NBTHK Hozon paper. Thanks for also sharing information about the maker of the tsuba a sword polisher. Please take a look at my website I think you will enjoy it. The link to my website is below and is part of my signature.

[J Reid]

Yes I agree with Adam. I find with sukashi designs my taste is quite particular. This is a very attractive tsuba.

[Curran]

Welcome. Very nice tsuba. After many years, one of my favorites remains a tosho tsuba with a similar story to it- former samurai who retired in late Momoyama / early Edo and took over making arrowheads, small blades, and some tsuba.

 

I find the design interesting as it would look best when the blade is drawn.

 

One question I have for others who read better Japanese than I do: is it not "Toshiyuki"?

[christianmalterre]

seems i have to browse now-as nobody connaissant into this specific "field" does/better said/-did reply here...

Curran!-yes!-after Joly i read same this noon-still but am hesitant due to this NBTHK attribution....

Hey Guys-i think this Tsuba here is much more interesting for us(old Tsuba "constellation-infected")than formerly first supposed by just an fast short glance of an look...

Do need time here-as(some know it)-i have to browse the racks of books now...(and i hate it!!!!!)

Just Patience is the Motto Antti!

Patience.... !

Is that Virus already gotten?-me do hope so!(Smile)

Maybe Ludolf???( )

Christian

[Antti]

Thank you again everyone for your input!

 

Soshin, as I said I've strolled through the 40 pages of topics in the tosogu forum and saw so many topics where a beginner had bought one of those cast tsuba from eBay. Some of them were so bad that even I could tell they were fakes. Usually by looking at the seppa dai, which looked somehow soft, and the nakago ana was the wrong shape. That is why I decided to stay the hell away from ebay, I've never liked the site anyway to be honest. I think all the topics in the forum really helped to avoid certain mistakes! I am also familiar with your site, and it is part of my browser bookmark-collection.

 

Your rather flattering comments about the tsuba really made me feel good about the purchase, and gave me some confidence to continue studying these pieces. Although if you find the tsuba attractive, I think I had some beginner's luck. Although I like the design, I was pretty sure the experienced collectors would not, or would have found it to be rather common.

 

It would be nice to hear about the signature as Curran said. I state again that I cannot read the NBTHK papers, and the info I've provided is from the Aoi Art estimation papers.

I really appreciate all input and thank you for searching your books!

[Curran]

Really nice to see someone start on the right foot.

I hope you stay with it, and end up as artistically addicted as us.

[Pete Klein]

Here is the listing from Wakayama Toso Kodogu Meiji Taikei, Vol 2, pg. 331:

I cannot find this in the Haynes' Reference books but the name might also be Toshichiku or Juchiku (not yuki -- different kanji). If anyone proficient in Japanese comes along please provide a translation.

[christianmalterre]

Thanks Pete

 

me did not find anything in mine books...have to pass.

 

Christian

[Antti]

I must say it is quite a community you have here!

 

Thank you so much mr. Klein and Christian for your invaluable work!

 

I will add a photo, a closeup of the signature next to the example in your book.

 

(EDIT)

 

Oh my goodness. I think I might have found a tsuba by the same maker! Google to the rescue! The site lists him as "Juchiku"! Is this the same signature! What do you think?

 

This is from a german site, where this tsuba was sold. The description says:

 

Sign.: Tobu ju (Edo) Juchiku.. Edo, 18. Jh., vgl. H 04018.0. Ø 7,5 cm, D 4,4 mm. Holzdose.

 

"H 04018.0." is a reference to Haynes' books right? Could some kind soul look him up?

[MauroP]

Hi Antti. nice tsuba. Here the transcription/translation of the relevant part of your NBTHK paper (first 3 columns from the right):

鑑定書 - kanteisho - certificate

一。霞雁金透鐔 銘寿竹 - Ichi. Kasumi karigane sukashi tsuba Mei Toshichiku - Subject: open work tsuba with wild geese in the mist, signed Toshichiku

竪丸形 鉄磨地 地透 - Tatemaru-gata tetsu migaki-ji ji-sukashi - Oval shape, iron material, polished surface, positive design openwork

Bye, Mauro

[k morita]

Hi,

[Antti]

I will add mr. Morita and mr. Piantanida to my list of personal heros.

 

The translation by mr. Morita seems to match the Aoi Art attribution "At kyoho era, he was born at Takeya family's son / was called Masaoki (Masaki? -A).

 

Now if the tsuba I found is made by the same person, and there is something on him in the Haynes book, this will be even more interesting!

 

Thanks again!

[growlingbear]

Hi Antti,

 

This is the Haynes entry:

 

 

James

[Antti]

James thank you so much!

 

This information is most interesting! An expert of the Shogunate...

 

Here I thought a beginner entering a forum such as this one wouldnt be easy but the community here has been beyond words helpful and understanding!

[Soshin]

Hi Antti S.,

 

I find it intresting that Haynes in is index lists the salary the tsuba maker made as a sword polisher I presume. A koku of rice is the volume of rice required to feed one person for one year. A koban gold coin used as a currency of Bakufu was worth about three koku of rice.

[Pete Klein]

This is an interesting guide to valuations in Edo Japan: http://wiki.samurai-archives.com/index. ... e=Currency

 

Five koku being five ryo is little compensation, at least it would seem from this article.

[Soshin]

Hi Pete K.,

 

Thanks for the reply. I found the read of the website very interesting. It states that a Hatamoto a mid rank samurai who was a direct retainer of the Tokugawa shogun had a salary of 100 to almost 10,000 koku of rice per year. The daimyo class had earnings of 10,000 on up per year for comparison. Having a salary of 5 koku per year and not being a samurai is reasonable I think.

[Pete Klein]

Having a salary of 5 koku per year and not being a samurai is reasonable I think.

 

Yah wants me to super-size that fer yah???

[Soshin]

 

Yah wants me to super-size that fer yah???

:lol: :lol: :lol:

[Antti]

I wonder was he a sword polisher for the shogunate for 5 koku, and then made tsuba on the side to make extra earnings, or was making tsuba also part of his job where just got paid 5 koku.

 

Or did he polish swords and make tsuba as his job, and got an extra 5 koku as a stipend from Bakufu for being an "expert".

 

Just wondering if 6 ryo = 6 koku = a typical annual wage for a laborer = One hungry Masahiro

 

Its just that the Aoi Art papers state that he "got job from Tokugawa family treatment 5 Ninbuchi (he was a master of 5 person).

 

I also wonder if he ever had a precognitive experience where he saw two americans and a finn talking about his wages in an almost magic-like electronic network some 250 years after he had died.

[Soshin]

Its just that the Aoi Art papers state that he "got job from Tokugawa family treatment 5 Ninbuchi (he was a master of 5 person).

 

Hi,

 

This I think is related to meaning of a koku of rice that I stated above. He likely made tsuba as a side business to make extra money in addition to his appointment as a sword polisher.

[Antti]

Ah now I understand. I thought 5 Ninbuchi meant that you have 5 people working for you, put it meant "a salary for 5 people". Okay makes much more sense now.

 

Thanks!

 

(edit)

 

One more time, here are two more picture of the tsuba, showing the true color.