Yasuki steel significance???

[patrick7813]

I have a gunto mounted blade by Kanesane. The nakago, with a Showa stamp and "sane" hotstamp applied, is signed ”Motte Yasugi Ko Asano Kanesane Saku Kore” indicating the blade was forged from Yasuki steel. I can’t find any specifics to the significance of using Yasuki steel and/or including that in the mei. However, I have read yasukihagane described as a non-traditional or substitute tamahagane but that makes me further question using it for, presumably, a Showato. The blade is in extremely nice condition as is the type 98 shin gunto koshirae housing it.

 

Is there any significance to the blade being made from Yasuki steel and does that imply a higher quality product? Ultimately, I'm trying to determine if I have a "keeper". Thanks for any additional insights.

 

Cheers,

[cabowen]

This was a high grade, alternative steel produced to help meet the large demand for suitable sword steel while also giving smiths a cheaper, viable, alternative to tamahagane.

 

If you want to collect traditional blades, then those made with alternative steels don't qualify.

[patrick7813]

Chris,

 

Thanks. Admittedly, my interest is in gunto mounted gendaito blades. When I encounter any gunto mounted blade that has unusual characteristics (e.g., Yasukihagane), I'm interested to pursue it further. I realize this isn't a "traditional" blade but was curious if the use of Yasukihagane gave it additional cachet over one not forged with it. Would there have been any "special" reason (hence including it in the mei) for using it instead of "western steel"? Maybe I'm attempting (or hoping) to read more into this than exists.

 

Cheers,

[cabowen]

In the day, it may have been significant to note that the blade was made of something other than recycled western steel. It may also have been a marketing technique- new and improved Yasuki steel!

 

In any case, personally, I take it as a major negative and wouldn't own a blade made of Yasuki steel. Call me old fashioned, but I'm a tamahagane kind of guy....

[patrick7813]

Thanks. Interesting perspective but I understand it.....

 

Cheers,

[george trotter]

Your question raises an interesting point Patrick.

As Chris said, Yasuki steel is one of those things that is definitely in the realm of showato steel...it is not in the realm of nihonto. Of interest yes, but only in the collection of militaria.

There are other inscriptions however that are a bit "marginal" and probably raise debate.

One is the Gunsui steel inscription. These are usually well made swords and are by reputable smiths, but are made with steel of the electric refiniig process...brand name Gunsui. I have not had them in hand but they look very good so are in nihonto collections...are they nihonto? I think despite their quality, probably not in the true sense.

Another is the inscription "made from the battleship MIKASA". These are again by reputable smiths and certainly are in collections because of both the smith reputation and also the history of the Mikasa. Again...nihonto? I think probably not in the true sense. If one of these came my way I might hang on to it of course, but like Chris, I want true gendaito...nihonto

There are probably other types. I'm sure you could google these things or search here. But Yasuki...no, just WWII showato IMHO so do not come into the gendaito category...they are in the militaria category.

Regards,

[cabowen]

At issue is whether the steel was put through the oroshigane process as used with tamahagane, after which it is forged and folded into a billet. Western steels are not put through this process as they are already fairly homogeneous. Often they are given a few foldings and that is it. These are called hantan (half forged) blades and while they have some hada, they aren't traditionally made blades. They are still usually oil quenched.

 

Gunsui is an electrolytic iron which is extremely pure. It was expensive and hard to get during the war; it was developed as a substitute for tamahagane. It didn't catch on but was used by some smiths on an experimental basis. It was put though oroshigane and all the usual steps and as a result these blades are considered traditionally made, as would a Nanban tetsu blade. These are seen by smiths from Gumma (where the company that made the steel was located) as well as in works by Kurihara Akihide and a few of his students (he was connected with this company in some way).

 

The western steel used by Horii Toshihide in the making of the Mikasa blades was also put through the oroshigane process and forged/folded. Also, there is some uncertainty as to exactly how much of the Mikasa steel was actually incorporated into the making of these blades. In any case, the fact that they were forged and water quenched also places them in the traditional category the was that nanban tetsu blades are....They have passed NBTHK shinsa.

[george trotter]

Hi Chris,...I knew these were highly regarded smiths but was unsure whether they were "technically" nihonto because of the steel. If they are made to traditional procedures, as in namban tetsu blades, then that answers the question...of course, one is unlikely to see showato come from the hands of such high level smiths (I think), but it's good to hear just how the decision to classify and paper is made.

I think I saw a Mikasa tanto for sale not so long back...

Regards,

[patrick7813]

George,

 

Thanks for your thoughts. I had not heard of blades being forged with Gunsui steel but will now familiarize myself as much as possible about it. I have heard of blades being forged from Mikasa steel (and the history associated with that steel) by very reputable smiths. There’s no doubt this Kanesane sword in question is a Showato. Given the feelings expressed about Yasuki steel, I still find it very “odd” that any reference that it was used to forge this blade is included in the mei. To me, that would imply some level of significance. Otherwise, why is it mentioned? Unfortunately, I suspect it’s another of these oddities about which we’ll never know the full story.

 

Cheers,

[runagmc]

Like Chris said, maybe it was a marketing point (marketed as a positive characteristic) at the time... similar to the way nambantetsu was included in some mei, seemingly as a positive characteristic...

[patrick7813]

Guys

 

Thanks for all the input – it certainly helps in my schooling. A final thought and this is from the military collecting perspective. If mentioning Yasuki, Misaka or Gunsui steel (or others) in the mei was a “marketing” technique, do you think it’s a safe assumption that Showato blades bearing those names were held in higher esteem that those not containing it?

 

Cheers,

[cabowen]

Yasuki steel was well known and used in carpentry tools and cutlery. Using steel by that name in swords had marketing cache.

 

The blades made from the Mikasa had a patriotic attraction due to the historical significance of the ship the steel came from. Not showa-to.

 

Gunsui steel was, as said, an attempt to "improve" and replace tamahagane with a modern, high tech, alternative. Not showa-to.

 

Yes, I would think that a showa-to made of yasuki steel was an improved product in comparison to those showa-to made of recycled western steel. Then again, they are still showa-to....

[Bruno]

Were Yasuki, Gunsui and Mikasa steels Western steels or were they entirely produced in Japan although not tamahagane?

[george trotter]

Hi Patrick,

I haven't done a search, but the Mikasa may have been built in England, although by c.1900 the Japanese were probably capable of building a Dreadnought. Even so, I am doubtful that the Mikasa steel came from Japan...their steel making capacity/quality may not have been that advanced?

Gunsui was an entirely local product as was yasuki.

BTW a fair number of makers have Yasuki in their mei, not just Kanezane.

Regards,

[patrick7813]

Chris & George

 

Thanks for all your insights and help. I appreciate it!

 

I started this discussion with the idea of determining if a Showato with Yasuki steel in the mei would mean it has a higher worthiness than one without. Reading between the lines, the answer is likely. Certainly, some Showato are of a better quality than others. Whether a Showato made with Yasuki steel is better than one made from other steel (excepting Mikasa or Gunsui) solely due to the steel used can be debated due to lack of definitive information. Apparently, Kanesane was a regarded smith but how high I’m uncertain (no Mil. Yen rating) although he was awarded 2nd seat at the 41 Exhibition and betseki in 43 (Dr. Stein’s website has a detailed description). How that might play into his use of Yasuki steel (if at all) escapes me. He certainly forged blades without naming Yasuki steel in the mei.

 

As an aside, I have a gunto mounted Koto era blade and therefore visual evidence of the superiority of a nihonto blade versus a showato blade. This discussion was never an attempt to compare the two.

 

BTW, my searching shows the Mikasa was made in Great Brittan (Vickers, Barrow-in-Furness). I haven’t found any indication of the steel’s origin but I doubt Japan. I did find a statement that Japan in ca. 1900 lacked the technical capability to build a Dreadnaught.

 

Cheers,

[cabowen]

Gunsui is electolytic iron made in Japan. Not used in Showa-to.

 

Yasuki is steel made in Japan.

 

Mikasa Taiho tetsu is western steel (Vickers) from the cannon on board the MIkasa. Not used in Showa-to.

[Bruno]

I am a bit lost. During WW2 there were many different kind of steels like Yasuki, Gunsui, Mikasa, antirust, stainless, Mantetsu steels.

 

Some were made in Japan, others imported, some of better quality than the others, but all were not tamahagane.

 

So why some swords made with one or another kind of steel is considered as as showato or as nihonto?

 

I know older swords made with nanban tetsu forged by great smiths are considered true nihonto, but for gendaito I did not know it was also the same.

[cabowen]

Maybe you missed this above:

 

At issue is whether the steel was put through the oroshigane process as used with tamahagane, after which it is forged and folded into a billet. Western steels are not put through this process as they are already fairly homogeneous. Often they are given a few foldings and that is it. These are called hantan (half forged) blades and while they have some hada, they aren't traditionally made blades. They are still usually oil quenched.

 

Gunsui is an electrolytic iron which is extremely pure. It was expensive and hard to get during the war; it was developed as a substitute for tamahagane. It didn't catch on but was used by some smiths on an experimental basis. It was put though oroshigane and all the usual steps and as a result these blades are considered traditionally made, as would a Nanban tetsu blade. These are seen by smiths from Gumma (where the company that made the steel was located) as well as in works by Kurihara Akihide and a few of his students (he was connected with this company in some way).

 

The western steel used by Horii Toshihide in the making of the Mikasa blades was also put through the oroshigane process and forged/folded. Also, there is some uncertainty as to exactly how much of the Mikasa steel was actually incorporated into the making of these blades. In any case, the fact that they were forged and water quenched also places them in the traditional category the was that nanban tetsu blades are....They have passed NBTHK shinsa.

[Bruno]

Thanks Chris, you are right I missed this post.

 

So a different steel than tamahagane must be put though oroshigane process and all the usual steps, (and then forged traditionally by a trained smith) to be considered as a true nihonto?

 

I am not sure to visualize well what oroshigane (grater ) process and all the usual steps are.

 

Were gunsui-to and Mikasa-to considered as true nihonto from WW2, and did they receive this recognition recently (NBTHK papers)?

[cabowen]

Oroshigane is a process that adjusts the carbon content of the raw material.

 

Yes, when steel is put through this process, then orikaishi tanren, followed by yaki-ire in a water quench, by a licensed smith, it is considered Nihonto.

 

I would assume that the Gunsuito made by Akihide and his students, along with the blades made by Horii Toshihide with Mikasa steel, were considered Japanese swords by those that made them.

 

I have seen NBTHK kantei sho for a Mikasa blade but not for a Gunsui blade (that doesn't mean much).

[David Flynn]

Just means, Never say Never.

[Bruno]

Thanks Chris! Very interesting.

 

Just means, Never say Never.

 

Can you develop David? What do you mean?

[David Flynn]

In Japanese swords, there are many exceptions to the rule.

[cisco-san]

Hello,

sorry for my studip question.

But I wonder if a difference on a "traditional" made blade (folded, water quenched...) but made not from Tamahagane and a real traditional made blade (folded, water quenched.....and Tamahagane used) can be seen.

As I know, the main points are quenching (water or oil), forging technics.... but not the used steel?!

Of course, if it is written on the Nakago, everybody knows that some other steel has been used. But as long as there is no such indicator....?

Many thanks

Klaus

[cabowen]

If a blade is made of a steel other than tamahagane, and it is put through the oroshigane process first, it will be about impossible to tell that it wasn't made of tamahagane from looking at it. I have asked many smiths this question and received this answer, or a variation, every time....

[christianmalterre]

There´s an very excellent essaye-or rather said some continuous essayes(think 6 or 7-had to look...)written about iron,steel,namban Tetsu,propper evaluation and Kantei/Nihonto-constellation

by Author F.Coutinho

Published in the older 2010(around) JSSUS-Newsletters

As far as i know,he´s an extremely knowledgeable collector in Nihonto and an very excellent "Hobby"-Metallurgist....

 

If you don´t get or have them-let me know(PM)-as such,i would do you some copies then

(you but had to take the copycosts and shipping of course!)

 

Christian

[cisco-san]

PM sent !

[benatthelake]

I believe I have a similar sword....I believe the Mei includes a reference to Yasuki steel. Thoughts on this one?

 

Additional photos are on the Translation Section as I started out looking for this.