Help with translating date

[Ronin 47]

Hi I need some help with this date inscription. I know its hard to see but I was wondering if any one could tell me what the second character is. So far I got something like Gen ? Go shichi gatsu hi. Thanks for any help.

Austin

 

http://img169.imageshack.us/my.php?image=gen1pn0.png

[Ichi]

Gee, I enlarged the pic, tried changing contrast, but still cannot see the characters clearly. Maybe someone with a better eyesight may. Sorry.

[Nobody]

I also cannot see characters. We need more sharp photos with better contrast.

[Ronin 47]

I will try to get some better PICS up later. But its rather difficult because the characters are so worn down.

[Ronin 47]

I can't seem to get any clearer pictures of the inscription so I drew the first two characters, maybe someone can read them from this. Sorry about my lack of calligraphy skill.

 

http://img477.imageshack.us/my.php?image=gen2iz1.png

[Ichi]

Hi Ronin 47,

 

Don't look like a Japanese to me. How about do oshigata? Get a tracing paper and charcoal over the inscription.

[Ronin 47]

I'm afraid that the oshigata is a no go. I tried it a couple times with tracing paper but the characters are just too far gone to leave an impression.

[Nobody]

Hi Ronin 47,

 

Are you sure that the inscription is a date? It is on the omote side of the katana.

BTW, what is the mei on the other side of the nakago?

[Ronin 47]

I'm pretty sure its a date the last two characters are clearly ( while it doesn't show up in the pictures) gatsu hi. Its signed tachi mei and I'm pretty sure it reads Bi shu ? ? ? mitsu. Three of those characters for the mei are totally unreadable. Here is one more picture of the date, I went over the two characters with black. Thanks again for any help.

 

http://img529.imageshack.us/my.php?image=gen3to0.png

[Nobody]

With only a wild guess. So, please do not ask me the grounds for that. :?

 

延文 (Enbun: 1356-1361)

 

Attached examples are Yoshimitsu and Kanemitsu in Enbun era.

[Ronin 47]

The second part could be bun but I don't know about the first part it looks more like Gen then En. Just out of curiosity do you have a oshigata of a blade dated Genkyu? Once again thank you for your help Mr. Moriyama

[Nobody]

My oshigata cannot be searched by nengo. So, it is hard to find Genkyu even if there is the data. And moreover, Genkyu era started in 1204 and ended at the 4th month in its 3rd year. If you read "the 5th year" on the nakago, Genkyu cannot be the answer.

[Stephen]

will help but maybe someone can see something....did you try a smoke oshigata?

[Henry Wilson]

Why not rub in some talcum powder into the mei and it might highlight it for a nice photo shot.....

[sencho]

My oshigata cannot be searched by nengo. So, it is hard to find Genkyu even if there is the data. And moreover, Genkyu era started in 1204 and ended at the 4th month in its 3rd year. If you read "the 5th year" on the nakago, Genkyu cannot be the answer.

 

What about GENBUN 1736 to 1741? or is this too late?

 

元文

 

Cheers...

[Ronin 47]

No, it can't be Genbun because the blade is most likely pre Oei. I think Mr. Moriyama is most likely right about the date being Enbun. It must be that the first character for En is written in some strange form of En or that its just worn down to the point where the En looks like a Gen. I might give the talcum powder trick a try a little later and post PICS.

[sencho]

Hmmmn... I see... otherwise by the character sketch, could the first one be a deformed SHO　 .... extend the bottom horizontal stroke a bit...

 

正

 

cheers

[Ronin 47]

Here is a pic with the talcum powder. Its now a bit easier to see.

 

http://img46.imageshack.us/my.php?image=gen2pz7.png

[sencho]

obviously missing some strokes but how about OAN? 1368 to 75... enough years too...

 

Shape of the existing (visible) strokes seem OK...

 

Cheers

[Stephen]

looks like ann maybe bunann? have you ever done a smoke Oshigata before?

[sencho]

Just can't see that first character being a BUN Stephen..... those two vertical strokes are too distinctive..... the second character looks more like a "BUN"... or an "AN" (as we both see)

 

文　　安

 

I think the first is definitely a "GEN" or an "O" (just because of the shape of the right vertical... the ol' 'mitsu flick'...! )

 

元　　応

 

By the way I see where Moriyamア san is getting his "EN" from too..

 

延

 

Also looks to me like GO NEN NI GATSU HI but I could well be wrong

 

五年ニ月日

 

cheers

[Stephen]

i see what you mean...im sure is Gen also...Genbun would fit the bill.

[sencho]

By the way... if this is a Nanbokucho period sword and is a Bishu Osafune sword does this dictate the particular emperor reign on the date....?

 

I mean would it have to be a Nancho period name or Hokucho period name? Or didn't it matter...

 

Seems to me that sword smiths at the time would have to sign the period name, dependant on which imperial courts jusrictiction they came under. But I have no idea if this was the case or not...

 

Which Imerial Court did Osafune fall under at that time? I suppose after looking at Moriyama san's post of oshigata(being ENBUN), it would fall under Hokucho.

 

Cheers

[Ronin 47]

Stephen what is a smoke Oshigata? Also what year does Genbun Correspond to?

 

Sencho I don't think it could be a Hokucho date sense I can't find one that starts with Gen, but I guess it could be Oan? I also could be wrong about the third character it could be a variation of Shi or maybe Ni.

[sencho]

With regards to the Hokucho I was just trying to understand the rule of thumb for smiths from different geographical areas during the period when the imperial courts were split.

 

Dependant on the gepgraphical location of a particular smith I would assume the they would have to sign their particular court.... not sure if Osafune was North or South or whether there were some in betweens!

 

Cheers

[Stephen]

genbun is 1736

[Ronin 47]

That's right genbun is 1736, but its way too late unless this is one hell of a fake.

[Nobody]

I am unsure about the date. But I still think that it is Enbun (延文) at present. Maybe Enbun go nen ni gatsu hi (延文五年二月日 = the 2nd month in 1360).

Attached image shows how I see En (延) on the nakago.

 

BTW, Enbun belonged to Hokucho (北朝).

[Stephen]

leave it to our resident translator....job well done Koichi san

[Ronin 47]

I see what Mr.Moriyama is saying about the En. Once again a big thanks to Mr.Moriyama, Stephen, and Sencho for thier help .

 

Here is what the boshi and hamon look like. The hamon is rather distinct but I can't seem to find a good candidate. Any ideas?

 

http://img154.imageshack.us/my.php?image=gen4ll2.png