To paper or not to paper- part 1

[peterqu]

I was in Japan last week and was surprised by the apparent contrast with the Japanese approach and the Western obsession of polishing and papering everything in sight.A well known dealer produced a First generation Tadayoshi from his personal collection.I am no big Hizen fan but even to my uneducated eye this blade was something special. i asked what papers he held and he replied that it had not been to shinsa.He added that he did not need papers as it was obvious to him that the mei was genuine.Now in the ordinary course of events I would be a little sceptical but the sword was not for sale so there was no need to impress .Indeed ,the sword spoke for itself .Roger Robertshaw the author and well know Hizen expert happened to be with me at the time and he concurred with the authenticity and suggested to me that a sword like that was probably published.More in Part 2. Regards,

[peterqu]

A couple of days later i visited another dealer and this time in the company of Paul Martin .I can highly recommend Paul for the consultancy services he provides.His professional approach is exceptional. Amongst other magnificent swords including a a Chikakage which had been a Tokugawa heirloom for six generations the dealer produced a Chogi in old polish.In spite of the old polish all of the activity was clearly visible.Words defy the pleasure of holding such a sword .The sword had a meibutsu of Hatchimonji-Chogi which meant nothing to me at the time.Again I dared to ask how the sword had been papered.The dealer simply smiled at my naivety and said that there was no need to paper the sword.Imagine my surprise when after returning home and doing a little research I stumble on the oshigata and commentary of the sword in Marcus Sesko's book on Koto Kantei.(perhaps someone can attach an extract which is on pages 178 and 179 ) Apparently the sword acquired its nickname for cutting a mounted rider through the helmet to the saddle during a battle and the name is derived from the sight of the two halves of the body sliding down the sides of the horse.So the question we should ask ourselves before we rush off and paper and polish everything is " Is it really necessary? " Regards,

[Brian]

Short answer while I am work.

If you are selling...yes.

If you are keeping for yourself and your own enjoyment.....no. Not always.

 

Brian

[paulb]

I agree with Brian's brief comment. Although papers have always been important to western buyers, I believe their significance has increased in recent years. This is partly because the majority of purhcases are made at distance without the chance to hold the piece you are buying, but more importantly (and possibly more controversially) people no longer seem prepared to put the time in to study and understand what they are seeing. Buying a papered blade as an alternative to having to understand what they are looking at. I also think the ego element (i.e I have 5 juyo blades how many have you got?) certainly plays a part.

I have found in communication with Japanese collectors and dealers their approach is a little different. A basic paper is often regarded as enough as all they want to do is confirm authenticity. TH is only a step to Juyo and that only really becomes significant if and when they want to sell a sword.

As always the individual has to decide what to do with their swords or fittings. What I regard s the most important sword I currently hold has a shumei, sayagaki and hozon paper all attributing it to the same smith. As in Peter's example it is also obvious what it is. As a result it will not be submitted for anything higher until I decide to move it on. That has nothing to do with it's quality or respect for the blade it is a simple commercial decision reflecting the nature of the current market.

[nagamaki - Franco]

" Is it really necessary? "

 

1) for the next owner.

2) not when as stated, obvious as in signed.

3) mumei, having a clear consensus on who made the sword is worthy. Paper agrees with attributions, sayagaki, or previous origami.

4) having a "good" professional opinion is a very good beginning point and reference for nihonto student to begin their own determination and study of the blade, even if the "good" opinion is incorrect.

5) papering can be used to test one's own ability and skill (especially at beginner and beginning intermediate levels) at kantei (quality), nihonto and tosogu.

[Jorgensen]

Hi Peter,

 

Interesting post. My opionion. If the blade is very obvious to the maker etc., I think no need to paper. If it could be doubtfully and/or you plan to move on the blade in future, I think papers are good.

 

Here are the pages 178 / 179 from Marcus excellent book, as you mentioned in the first post. I hope it okay with Marcus to post the 2 pages and sees it as a advantage.

[cabowen]

Depends on many things, many mentioned above.

 

If one is looking for a reliable opinion and/or papering for resale, of the utmost importance is the skill and reputation of the group issuing the papers. They are not all equal. One should do one's homework on the shinsa team before spending money on papers to be sure that their opinions are widely respected and regarded as reliable and trustworthy. An easy way to do this is to find out how many submissions the group gets per month in Japan. There is little point in spending money on papers that receive little to no respect in the mainstream, either just for an "opinion" or for resale.

 

It should be kept in mind that in general, there are few cultures as "brand conscience" as the Japanese, nor are there many that revere authority the way they do in Japan. Papers have been issued in Japan primarily to serve the dealers, giving their customers comfort (seto koto goto), and a "brand", thus making it easier to sell to customers. This was especially important during the bubble years when many sword buyers had little to no knowledge and relied entirely on the dealers. With the bursting of the bubble, there are fewer "one sword" collectors in Japan. It also bears keeping in mind that, for many reasons, Japan (perhaps until rather recently), has not really been a culture where one sees private sales on par with what we see in the US, for example. Being a group culture, Japanese, in general, do not like to interact on a personal basis with strangers. The preferred, or usual method to purchase, for many, has been from established sellers, not from private collectors.

 

With the scandals that have plagued the sword community, many collectors in Japan have lost respect and faith in papers. Many advanced collectors have always eschewed papers, relying instead on their own research and opinion. In my experience, Japanese collectors, unlike their Western counterparts, seem much less motivated to paper for resale purposes. Cultural difference perhaps. Or it could be that the inheritance taxes favor keeping such assets out of sight.

 

In any case, the most important thing to keep in mind is make sure the papers you get actually accomplish their intended purpose. Do your homework.

 

DISCLAIMER: I am a director of a Japanese sword society that issues papers.

[Pete Klein]

If I lived in Japan and was fluent in both written and spoken Japanese I could go to lectures and study sessions and learn much more than I will ever be able to residing outside the country. I would also have at hand a multitude of examples to view and many like minded students to confer with. As for the first two posts for someone who has spent a lifetime studying the field in Japan that which is 'obvious' simply is not usually for the outsider unless they have made extraordinary efforts in their learning. For us in general then, yes, I agree with what others have said here, especially for papers as a learning tool, although they can be wrong also.

[raiden]

From my experience, the decision to paper or not seems to depend upon both the piece, and / or the collector. Some people would like an educated opinion to help guide them in their study of their item, while others just want verification of their opinion / or verification for value. However, in Japan, there seemed to have been many old collectors that studied hard, thus in their collections were may uncertified pieces, but they also had the guidance of someone who's opinion was well respected (Amiya comes to mind). When I buy items that have no certificate, I love to take up the challenge to figure it out. This works on both signed and unsigned pieces. The for educational purposes, I will either show it to my teachers, and / or shinsa it to see and compare their opinion to mine. If I am terrribly different, then I always look to see why so I can learn as perhaps I missed something in my study.

As far as Peters question is concerned, well known pieces in Japan don't need any certificates. They have been accepted for years as to what they were due to their provonance, or past history. A good example was a Shintogo Kunimitsu tanto my friend showed me years ago.....it was so healthy and gorgeous! But when I saw the nakago, it was not only signed, but dated as well....apparantly 1 of 3 that was published in an old book years ago that belonged to a famous Daimyo ......no need for any certification, but one could see that it was an easy Tokubetsu Juyo blade in any day! Each piece has to be viewed one by one, piece by piece...and opinions by well educated peers never hurt. And no, I do not have papers for everything in my collection, but yet many pieces do!

[seattle1]

Hello:

I have been lurking around the Message Board and this topic is both important and interesting, so here goes my two cents worth. I thought several posts quite interesting and useful, particularly those of Mike Chris and Mike, all of which hardly needs repeating, however there are other considerations.

Some sort of authentication has long been recognized in Japan, just witness the importance of the Hon'ami family for hundreds of years, though the general proliferation of origami type authentication hardly predates the 20th Century. Papers are a sort of control for the collector and the dealer, and hopefully a confirmation of one's own study. The shinsa process outside Japan is really quite new, dating as it does to no earlier than that of the NBTHK in Dallas in the early 1970s as far as I know. With the widespread access to good publications with well authenticated oshigata and photographs I believe that most collectors with five or so years into the game, can do a fair first approximation on commonly seen signed blades as to whether or not the mei is right. The rub comes with unsigned swords. To judge such swords really takes an almost encyclopedic fund of knowledge that can be applied in a systematic way. That way is really equivalent to the kantei process and that is a skill in very scarce supply among non-Japanese based collectors. To merely tell a koto from a shinto sword is a genuine challenge; the period, the school, the maker, to say nothing of quality, whether it has been retempered etc., is no easy task. Kantei is the key to efficient use of the hundreds of clues all unsigned swords display, and how many collectors outside Japan have ever participated in such an exercise?

Shinsa are very valuable activities and the market test is their own frequency in recent years which demonstrates that. Several have pointed out that the resulting paper to the lucky submitter is of value if one wants to sell. Of course that is true, but I believe that an even more important consideration is that it helps put an aggregate value on one's collection. We are only the temporary custodians of these wonderful pieces of steel and when the grim reaper does arrive, the swords no longer belong to the collector and the estate usually must face the task of dispersal. Swords are tangible assets, easy to buy and hard to sell for the collector, and often next to impossible for the estate, and by that I mean sell at a price that is reasonably close to their true value. It is hard to think of any economic commodity that is more illiquid, more heterogeneous, more difficulty to store or transport without damage, or more difficult for the uninitiated to value. To most non-collectors a fine koto o-suriage Tokubetsu Juyo in shirasaya would hardly look as attractive as a Chu (no) Jo saku shinshinto sword in nice bright mounts.

It is for the above considerations, and more, that papers are of real use in helping to determine the value of that part of an estate. Dealers can play an important role in the whole process, but at least the paper is an important device in the field leveling process.

Arnold F.

[hxv]

Arnold,

 

Excellent point!

Hoanh

[cabowen]

I think we are starting to get into some interesting territory.....

 

We hear and talk about "how to collect" with extreme frequency; perhaps what really needs attention is the discussion of the flip side- how to divest a collection in the most economically efficient manner. This topic gets next to zero attention despite it being, in my opinion, as important as "how to collect".

 

The use of papers to commoditize (is that a word?) swords so as to make them easier to value and sell, most often said to be as part of an estate, sounds like an excellent and logical reason for participating in the shinsa process. In theory, it makes great sense, but I have my doubts how reliable relying on such beliefs is in practice. All one needs to do is look at the wide variety of prices asked for Juto to see that the wide price spread ($18K-$100K) for Juto makes that difficult at best. Hozon and TH have added complications: some Hozon swords might actually be good enough for TH. Some TH swords may be worthy of Juto. While these may be few and far between, it is realistic enough to make reliance on papers to set a price problematic. I don't want to contradict Arnold but I have a hard time seeing how the concept works in practice....

 

At the end of the day, swords are always valued one by one, and sell for what whomever has the opportunity to buy is willing to pay. The sword market has been volatile the last 20 years with prices moving around quite a bit. Some areas are hot, some not. It is easy to speak in generalities but when the collection needs to be sold, the devil is in the details. With the internet, it is not that difficult to research asking prices for many smiths. There must be 50 or more dealer sites with their inventory and prices free for all. I believe the best one can do is come up with a range of values for any given sword using such market research. Perhaps doing this type of research and leaving a guide behind to one's heirs might be a first step. Another idea might be to "pre-sell" items- that is, have buyers committed at an agreed price in the future for that blade they are always bugging you to sell...If one can line up a list of buyers before hand, it would simplify things later.

 

I think it would be a valuable and interesting exercise to share ideas on how best to leave a collection to an estate for dispersal. I have seen all too often the situation where a collector leaves it to a fellow collector "friend" to handle post mortum, only to see the collection cherry picked to the "friend's" buddies for low ball prices, then once the quality items are gone, the rest gets wholesaled in bulk for whatever. Rarely have I seen a collection of any substance handled equitably by a "friend".

 

I have my share of ideas, and so as not to high jack this thread, perhaps what is in order is a new thread wherein we discuss how one should best go about setting up the dispersal of a collection....Any takers?

[seattle1]

Hello:

I would like to respond to Chris's comment, which I believe advances the theme I tried to open. I hope my replies will never be seen to attack a person or even their views; only to add clarification if possible.

The point I was trying to make was not that a shinsa and resultant papers clarifies value, as papers say nothing about that in a direct way. They often are unhelpful as to generation of a particular named smith and can even shy away from any smith when mentioning a group whose members can vary greatly in value smith to smith and period to period. What I do believe is important is that a paper will serve as a somewhat practical floor in the price setting process. That alone will give a widow, a child, an estate executor, etc., a useful degree of playing field levelling against the unknowing or the unscrupulous who would otherwise cry "fake", "retempered", "iron tsunagi for the nice mounting", or terms to that effect. The actual setting of value is of course a step beyond that. The shinsa can be thought of as almost a necessary condition in the selling process, particularly when the seller has little personal knowledge; but it is hardly a sufficient condition for value determination.

The different shinsa organizations all have slightly different criteria themselves and their relative staus and competitiveness changes over time, but they all are very much better than nothing. For a fairly recent criteria set of the NBTHK check Danny Massey's site, which I believe is nihontocraft.com.

It is quite surprising how many collectors fail to take even the most minimal steps to advise their families about what they own and what those things are worth, however when they do the shinsa papers can be invaluable starting points.

Arnold F.

[cabowen]

OK, I follow you- shinsa as a vetting process and to establish a baseline, but not as a specific valuation mechanism...

[raiden]

Probably a new thread is better - just to make things clear for the majority, and we seem to be changing the thread a bit...but I like the new thread idea, and I think it is important.

[DirkO]

I think Chris is right in saying that we as collectors need to document at least to a basic level the things we collect.I recently spent some time documenting every book I have on nihonto ( small collection 60+) with the prices I paid and the current average market price. This not only gives me a better view on what I have. but can also help in selling should something happen to me.

 

I think that although shinsa papers do attest to a certain quality and the validity off the signature it doesn't say much about value. So like was said before, we need to document this ourselves in order to give the ones that are left behind with the task to divest the collection at least some guidelines as to what prices the pieces should fetch.

[paulb]

As said previously, I think the various posts here open up an interenting avenue to be explored. Disposal of a collection whether when the collector has decided to call it a day or as part of an estate, is a major topic. Historically the simple route was to sell via a reputable auction house. I am no longer sure that this offers the best alternative, certainly recent experience does not increase confidence in that route.

I was disturbed by Chris' comment

I have seen all too often the situation where a collector leaves it to a fellow collector "friend" to handle post mortum, only to see the collection cherry picked to the "friend's" buddies for low ball prices, then once the quality items are gone, the rest gets wholesaled in bulk for whatever. Rarely have I seen a collection of any substance handled equitably by a "friend".

 

I have this childlike belief that those people involved in this subject would act honorably and with integrity. However human nature and the greed gene can sometimes take over. I have great faith in my firends and believe that should the need arise my family could rely on them for help.

Another point made is the need to document a collection. I think this is absolutely essential. personally I have items ( including books) listed on a excel spreadsheet which says when and where bought and for how much. I also have individual files for each piece with any description, research material or other paers relating to it. This is not only useful for disposal but also for insurnace purposes should the need arise to make a claim.

Hopefully by keeping this up to date it should make eventual disposal easier.

I would be interested in others ideas relating to simplifying the eventual sale of a collection.

[Alex A]

As you say Paul, for insureance purposes alone, a collection should be well photographed and documented. The main thing family will be concerned with is where to actually sell them, and unless its made clear, they will go to the wrong places. Pricewise, they need to be realistic.

 

Alex.

[christianmalterre]

generally speaking i think an good collection is known.

such,in case it´s sold either individually per object,or per bunch-the good pieces will ben picked out already before it´s commonly known or published this collection is sold.(despite some rare events where specific politics or interests are involved)

That´s equally the reason why collectors should forcefully try to get in personal touch with each other,seeing the each others collection,knowing the other collector personally and talk with each other!

 

Papers are essential-do but only make sense for the prime to very prime level.

Letting issue things of good to very good level,will equally not improove/increase the individual object.(neither in value-nor in reputation)

(an knowledgeable collector either ways "sees")

Those,thinking you would learn something from papers-i do recomment to buy books instead,collect knowledge by seeing collections in live and finally to be patient in their´s way in how to collect.

 

Christian

[Eric H]

Firstly as has been pointed out experienced Japanese have another approach to swords. Best examples are the Hachimonji-Chogi in old polish and the shodai Tadayoshi.The first doesn‘t need a new polish and for both papers are obsolete. The comments by Chris Bowen and Mike Y. affirm between the lines the advantage of papers, and it is true when paulb points to the significance of papers for western collectors, also in relation to the inheritants, who will be thankful to get a well documented collection in hands. I think papers are a bit more than a learning tool, they confirm the authenticity of the mei and this gives a rough guide of the commercial value of the sword, but as said, swords are valued one by one, i.e. Kiyomaro's skill has had a wide range as I remember a comment by Guido Schiller. Arnold F‘s comment on the history of „papering“ is interesting, as well the challenge with mumei blades, in this field only the Japanese experts are decisive.

I recall a recently happened incident where a longtime German collector tried to sell a gakumei Norishige at Koller Zurich, estimated between US$ 62,000 / 83,000. Koller was forced to withdraw the sword due to my stubborn intervention.

As said, the existence of a paper is an important device as well as the non-existence of a paper when in relation to a famous name.

 

Eric