Tsuba Kantei...

[Soshin]

Hi Everyone,

 

Just want to post this tsuba kantei for educational purposes. The tsuba in question passed the NBTHK tosogu shinsa in February of this year and was awarded a Hozon level certificate. The measurements for this iron tsuba are 7.0 ✕ 7.0 cm, 6.0 mm at rim. The following is what I am looking for in a reply to my tsuba kantei. Each answer must be followed with some type of an explanation with the exception of answer #4.

 

1. School or Group of Production (ex. Umetada, Kinko etc.) [Who]

2. Approximate Location of Production (ex. Yamashiro Province, Hizen Province, etc.) [Where]

3. Approximate Period of Production (ex. late Edo Period, Middle Muromachi Period, etc.) [When]

4. Design Motif (ex. shippo, Daruma, etc.) [What]

 

Once I get the certificate from the NBTHK (they are writing it now or it is in transit) I will post the results with a detail written explanation. Each correct answer is one point and winners get a funny smilie face. Cash awards are not given as I need all my money for books (Grey D.) and other tsuba. :lol:

If you have any question please let me know via PM and allow space on this topic for answers only. If you need any additional photographs also please PM your requests. I will add the photographs and information if it is helpful with out giving away the whole answers. Have fun and enjoy.

 

P.S. One other note if you can use the "Spoiler" feature when you post your answers that would be great.

[MauroP]

I like competition, and since my bravery is comparable only to my ignorance, I'm giving my answers:

 

1- Owari school: maru-mimi, symmetrical sukashi design, typical subject (second choice Kyō-Sukashi school, usually more delicate, thinner sukashi work). The small size is more consistent with Kanayama school, but late Kanayama were assimilated to Owari.

2- Owari province, present day Nagoya.

3- early to mid Edo: no tekkotsu visible as in older pieces; no yakite finish typical of early Kanayama.

4- matsukawabishi (pine bark), also a kamon.

 

Bye, Mauro

[hxv]

David,

 

This is a tough one and I'm not yet sufficiently knowledgeable - not a good combination. It could go Shoami or Owari, but I'll lean Shoami just because the iron doesn't seem to be at the level of Owari iron.

 

School: Shoami

Period: Mid Edo

Motif: Matsukawabishi

 

Regards,

Hoanh

[Curran]

 

I thought Mauro's write up was pretty good.

(1)Owari

(2) Nagoya (Owari)

(3) First 50 years of Edo

(4) split pinebark (Matsukawa)

 

Compact size, symetry, and >=6mm thickness, this could get a call as Kanayama or _maybe Ono_ (though not in my opinion).

large seppa dai, proportional % of outer open space beyond the design, relative to inside the design, says to me Owari.

 

[kaigunair]

Great idea David! Not my area of study so no guesses from me, but will watching this thread and noting the interest level.

[wbt]

 

I guess :

 

1. School - Sho-ami (could be Kyo-sukashi)

2. Approximate Location of Production - Kyoto area/Yamashiro

3. Approximate Period of Production - mid Edo

4. Design Motif - Nigaibishi katabami mon

 

 

Regards,

Brent

[Soshin]

Hi Everyone,

 

Thanks for the replys and participation. Still waiting for the official results to come. Here is some photos of the tsuba at different angles I did today collected as a composite. Feel free to edit your answers if you want. I will grade the answers and rank members who participate once I have the results. Enjoy...

[Soshin]

Hi Everyone,

 

The NBTHK Hozon paper just came today in the mail for the kantei tsuba. I am bit surprised by the shinsa results and some things on my website write up about this tsuba are wrong and need to be revised. I will be translating over this weekend the paper and will post my explanation along with a photo of the paper early next week (i.e. Monday or Tuesday) along with the point scores for all participants. Feel free to reply now with your answers for anyone who didn't reply in May. PM me if you have any questions. Thank you.

[uwe]

Not my subject, but very interesting. Will try to learn.......

 

 

first impression, Owari, Hishi mon

 

 

Uwe

[seattle1]

Hello:

My guess would be Ko Shoami, c. Momoyama, Kyoto, and pine bark like. Any guess is at a disadvantage without a measurement given for both the seppa-dai and mimi.

Arnold F.

[Soshin]

Hello:

Any guess is at a disadvantage without a measurement given for both the seppa-dai and mimi.

Arnold F.

 

Hi Arnold F.,

 

One thickness measurement was included in my write up about this tsuba for kantei. To state this again the rim (mimi) is the 6.0 mm and seppa-dai is approximately 5.0 mm. I just measured the seppa-dai thickness with the tsuba in hand.

[Curran]

"Survey Says...?" (Dawson from Family Fued)

[Soshin]

Hi Everyone,

 

Here is my tsuba Kantei results write up. Also included below is a photo showing NBTHK Hozon paper along with the tsuba. Shortly I will also be posting the point score for everyone that participated in the tsuba kantei. Feel free to discuss the results and ask any questions.

 

Tsuba Kantei Results

 

1. School or Group of Production (ex. Umetada, Kinko etc.) [Who]

Answer: The tsuba has a direct attributed to the Owari (尾張).

 

2. Approximate Location of Production (ex. Yamashiro Province, Hizen Province, etc.) [Where]

Answer: The tsuba was produced likely in or near the castle town of Kiyosu-juku (清須宿) in Owari Province (尾張國).

 

3. Approximate Period of Production (ex. late Edo Period, Middle Muromachi Period) [When]

Answer: The patina of the iron is a nice purplish black in color and has the glossy texture characteristics of Owari-jigane (尾張地金). The rim displays a few subdued tekkotsu (鉄骨). The oversized kobon (gold coin) shaped seppa-dai and bold thickness of the openwork design has all of the characteristic of classic Owari (尾張) school of the late Muromachi Period to Azuchi-Momoyama Period (室町 – 安土桃山時代). I tend to think it was made more toward the Azuchi-Momoyama Period but the official attribution wasn't that specific. For additional reference here is a link to a Edo Period Owari tsuba papered by the NBTHK: http://www.e-sword.jp/sale/2009/0910_6049syousai.htm. Here is a second Owari tsuba for reference attributed and dated to the early Edo Period by the NBTHK: http://www.e-sword.jp/sale/2010/1010_6003syousai.htm.

 

4. Design Motif (ex. shippo, Daruma, etc.) [What]

Answer: The positive openwork design of this tsuba is done in ji-sukashi (地透) and is referred to as “hidari migi ni gai bishi (左右二蓋菱)”. This design was commonly used as a family crests kamon (家紋) in fabric designs on clothes, flags, tents, and equipment during the Warring States Period (sengoku-jidai 戦国時代).

 

References

 

1. Owari to Mikawa no Tanko. Okamoto Yasukazu. Copyrighted 1982.

2. Masayuki Hirako e-sword Website: http://www.e-sword.jp/english.html

3. Mike Y. and Cyrus C. Tetsugendo Website: http://tetsugendo.com/

4. Tsuba An Aesthetic Study. Kazutaro Torigoye and Robert Haynes. Copyrighted 2007.

5. Wikipedia Article Mon (emblem) Website: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mon_(emblem)

 

[Soshin]

List of Participants

 

1. Mauro Piantanida, Point Score: 2/4

Correct Answers: Owari School, Owari Province

2. Hoanh, Point Score: 0/4

Correct Answers: None

3. Curran, Point Score: 2/4

Correct Answers: Owari School, Owari Province

4. W. Brent Tanner, Point Score: 1/4

Correct Answer: Nigaibishi

5. Uwe, Point Score: 1/4

Correct Answer: Owari School

6. Arnold F., Point Score: 1/4

Correct Answer: Momoyama Period

7. David Stiles (website write-up), Point Score: 2/4

Correct Answers: Owari School, Owari Province

 

Participants Kantei Rank

 

First Place: Mauro Piantanida, Curran, David Stiles, Prize: :|

Second Place: W. Brent Tanner, Uew, Arnold F., Prize:

Third Place: Hoanh, Prize:

 

P.S. I am aware of the lameness of these prizes but the first place people only received half of the available points. Lets all keep up the studying. :D

[seattle1]

Hello All:

Good stuff and very educational. When it comes to tsuba that are not ita plate the seppa-dai and mimi measurements might have been helpful. We should all remember however that "tsuba typing" is a much newer thing than blade kantei and open to other views that can be strongly argued as the level of NBTHK assessment at the lower paper level is rather hit and miss.

No criticism meant; let's see some more.

Arnold F.

[Soshin]

Hi Arnold F.,

 

Tosogu and nihonto attribution by the NBTHK are about the same age a product of the mid 20th Century but as you state Nihonto attribution is much older and date back many hundreds of years by the Fujishiro and Hoami families of sword polishers.

I was waiting for someone to ask a all important question. Which was thicker the seppa-dai or the mimi? Generally speaking Owari tsuba have a thicker mimi. It was not asked until your reply. The overall thickness of this tsuba and the jigane is likely why the NBTHK was thinking this was a pre Edo Period work of the Owari school. If the iron bones would have been larger and more numerous and surface showed more hammer marks the tsuba would have likely been given a Kanayama attribution.

[cabowen]

Fujishiro family of polishers started the trade in Taisho-Showa.

[Pete Klein]

David -- I am curious why you feel the NBTHK thinks it to be pre-Edo?

[Soshin]

Hi Chris B.,

 

Thanks for the correction. I wasn't aware that Fujishiro family started into sword polishing that recently. I know that the Hoami family has been polishing and writing appraisals for many hundreds of years and worked directly for the Tokugawa Shogun.

There are Edo Period docurments that discuss the attribution and appreciation of Yagyu and Akasaka tsuba but for most other schools or groups this didn't become wide spread until the Meiji Period. At that time the most common appraisal and/or attribution was in the form of a signed wooden storage box.

 

Hi Pete K.,

 

If you check out my website I was originally thinking this tsuba was made in the early Edo Period. I was a bit surpised to see that they attributed it directly to Owari. To simply answer your question the lack of then stating "Edo Period" on the paper makes me think they think it is earlier. From my observations if they think a Owari tsuba is Edo Period they would have stated it as per my two above examples.

[uwe]

Germany.....one point Quite a good start for an tosogu-novice

Thanks

Uwe

[Pete Klein]

David -- if they thought it was pre-Edo it could be listed as Ko, Momoyama, or possibly Shoki Edo for early Edo. I've not seen a 'Ko Owari' attribution so I doubt it's used but it's possible so I threw it in the mix. Just as with the flow chart I did on Goto for them to say Owari means it's Owari with no specific call on age or anything else. It's a generic call. The design and the differential between mimi and seppa dai was most likely what called it. Iron doesn't look pre-Edo to me but obviously I don't have it in hand.

[christianmalterre]

How about so to start an serious Kantei

 

LOL!

No,sorry if i joke-i just see correspondance and equally hints on this topic...such speaking,the general thematics least "seems" of certain interest indeed?

how but about the ideae so to start an monthly(weekly?) kantei into Tsuba?(Rich Turner did do that in past-and it was an very! funny event each time-we all did learn more than formerly expected-indeed!....

(Mods)?!(how about it?)

 

many(Tsuba) are available,many certainly unknown to the market/collector,,,, Database of "older ones" is crowded...i could count least 10 members here...

 

Do we need an certification issue? or is it just equally welcomed so to post/show pieces?

Game and trial by error is the Motto...

Izakaya for those who timid?

?

 

Either way-i think-we all could learn a very lot from this game?-Not?

Serious response out there?

 

Christian

[cabowen]

Hi Chris B.,

 

Thanks for the correction. I wasn't aware that Fujishiro family started into sword polishing that recently. I know that the Hoami family has been polishing and writing appraisals for many hundreds of years and worked directly for the Tokugawa Shogun.

 

 

 

One more correction: it is Hon'ami 本阿弥, not Hoami....

[christianmalterre]

happens indeed!

woory about!

!!!

 

[Soshin]

David -- if they thought it was pre-Edo it could be listed as Ko, Momoyama, or possibly Shoki Edo for early Edo. I've not seen a 'Ko Owari' attribution so I doubt it's used but it's possible so I threw it in the mix.

 

Hi Pete K.,

 

That is my point they don't use a "Ko-Owari" attribution term. Look at Mike Y. really nice late Muromachi Period Owari tsuba on the Tetsugendo website. It also has the extract same attribution as my tsuba. Note I am not comparing my tsuba to his just the attribution on NBTHK papers.

In the end it doesn't matter.

[Soshin]

Hi Everyone,

 

Found another early Edo Period Owari tsuba with NBTHK Hozon papers listed on anothers dealer's website. I like the openwork design. Here is the URL: http://samurai-nippon.net/T-399/index.html. Like my above examples it states early Edo Period on the NBTHK Hozon paper. This is different than my tsuba shinsa results which indicates classic Owari Sukashi which is pre Edo Period circa late Muromachi to Momoyama Period. Sorry I had to think back to a happier shinsa result after the bad one I received this past weekend.