its raining gendaito!

[Adrian S]

Hello All,

 

Just wondering. I've seen a multitude of unmounted gendaito blades coming onto Ebay from the same seller. Here are some

 

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/KO-Japanese- ... 20d2ad13b0

 

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/KO-Japanese- ... 1e7a98d4b8

 

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/KO-Japanese- ... 1e7a98f4ab

 

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/KO-Japanese- ... 1e7a994274

 

My questions are.. How can these swords leave Japan and be unregistered in this condition? Are these swords all gimei, made for the Iaito market? Are they of low quality so don't even rate a good polish and a habaki? Are they indeed 100% nihonto? Hhmm...

 

cheers,

[christianmalterre]

maybe there´s just an reduction in collection taking place here?

I personally do not see an problem here at all...

not really the blades enthousiast or fan of blades-

i but can tell you it would look Dito if some of us Tosogo Guys would start decision

so to reduce,or clearing,his Tsuba or Kodogu collection in once...

?

 

Christian

[Drago]

I agree with Christian.

 

Besides, what do you mean by unregistered? If you mean that sword registry paper: This always stays in Japan if the blade leaves the country - that is part of the export procedure. The seller is American, so of course the blades have no registry paper.

 

A blade does not need to have a habaki - if you buy it without one or if the old one doesn't fit after a polish and you don't buy a new one...

[Bruno]

I think the 3 first links can be iai-to.

[Marius]

Guys,

 

we all know that there is a procedure of selling shinsakuto outside the current restrictive system. Swordsmiths try to make a living, which for the "lesser" of them (i.e. those who ere not mukansa or otherwise recognized) is difficult. I think it has been discussed here....

[Adrian S]

Hello all,

 

Some interesting opinions but look closer. If this is "excess stock swords" made by lesser smiths , Minamoto Moriyoshi is rated mukansa, hardly a smith that needs to sell excess signed blades in the rough to make some small change! Ozaki Yasumune is a Yasukuni smith who died in 1997. Fujiwara Motohisa a well known and awarded smith whose blades fetch good prices...are we getting the picture yet? These are all recent made gimei. What about some poor beginner buying these blades and investing money in polish and mounts, will they ever paper? Nope

 

Sure some "never registered" shinsakuto leek out of the system, but they are generally sold unsigned are they not? For obvious reasons smiths register their signed blades as they count towards their quota. Excess blades are left unsigned.

 

As for genuinely signed and registered blades leaving the country I should have said more correctly de-registered. Can signed gimei shinsakuto go through the de-registration system for export in this state? The answer is no. So "if" the swords came from Japan they were all originally mumei and signed "after" the back door export.

 

I have seen another half a dozen or so similar blades from the same seller. That's an awful lot of back door blades. It all seems a little too unusual to me.

 

Here's my call, all made and signed in China. It is time the seller was encouraged to come clean in the descriptions which have been left intentionally ambiguous. Sorry for those who think I am making a big deal out of nothing, or breaking the unwritten rule to not "screw up someone else's deal". Ok guys fire retardant underwear is on!

 

cheers,

[pcfarrar]

Here's my call, all made and signed in China. It is time the seller was encouraged to come clean in the descriptions which have been left intentionally ambiguous. Sorry for those who think I am making a big deal out of nothing, or breaking the unwritten rule to not "screw up someone else's deal". Ok guys fire retardant underwear is on!

 

You are spot on, the seller knows fine well they are fakes but deliberately doesn't mention it in his listings. Dishonest IMHO.

[Brian]

No matter what the source...I think it is safe to say these swords were not made by the people signed on the nakago.

This has been discussed a few times here. Unlike the other swords sold by him that are excess gimei stock being cleared out of Japan due to undesirablity, these are all very similar in age and look. Maybe ok for iai? I have no idea...

 

Brian

[christianmalterre]

Fire retardant underwear on?

LOL!

Adrian-not with me here (personally big fan of Sd.Kfz.V-1943)-i´ll ask .88L/56 or rather .75L/70???

(I joke!)

 

Do see what you mean and have to confess it´s somehow known...(i just wonder it´s taking place these days and not 5 Years ago)

Once there was an pretty really nice(!) sword offered,sold,resold,papered-refused,again papered....ect.

Don´t know where it is actually-i but guess it´s still browsing around...well kept-smiling at us...

I but hope Rich T. or Guido S. is reading this-as i am shure one of them could provide you with excellent pictures here...(do not remind whom of both gentlemen posted this sword once in past-there were but pictures posted...(other forum)

I recall this one Dito was an Chinese made(by words)....Real Fake!...really Good one!-an "crack" of sword...an excellent!!! Fake...

 

Christian

[J Reid]

Yes this was discussed last time this seller had an unusual amount of gendai/shinsaku blades pop up. It was pointed out that all seemed to be made by the same smith as the forging pattern seemed to be consistent amongst them with a lamination fold running in the Hamon on all of them.

[cabowen]

Yes, they are all gimei-I think we can all agree on that..... clearly there is something "going on".....they would be fine for iai, but that is about it...

[Bruno]

Yes, they are all gimei-I think we can all agree on that..... clearly there is something "going on".....they would be fine for iai, but that is about it...

 

The real problems will start when these gimei gendaito will be for sale by other amateur/pro dealers. Now they are for sale by Komonjo they are easy to spot (same kind of photos, same seller), but with with photos with different light, angles, mounted etc...It won't be that easy to make the difference.

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

They look fake, particularly the ken...

[SwordGuyJoe]

Funny - I before I open the links I knew of exactly what and who you were talking about. I follow mikes auctions but in the last year or two he's had more and more of these. He used to get shirasaya made for them but he gave up on that about 6 mos ago. Not sure who makes these but it's not the signed smith and if I was guessing it is the same guy.

[Brian]

Not saying they are. But just hypothetically speaking, I think it is funny that if you had a modern smith create these, and sign them with a unique name, and then mount them in modern repro koshirae, market them and sell them openly as high end modern custom swords, made to order...you would probably fetch considerably more than these sell for. Just saying....

Look at the price of modern custom knives and swords...

So if any of the above allegations were remotely true, it would seem an odd way to sell something for less than it might have gone for.

 

Brian

[christianmalterre]

rather common practice-...least as long your´s "reputation" is not honoured financially(i tend to say here Brian)

and such-(so to ben "honoured" financially(in final)-does take it´s time)...

It´s an well known procedure in fact....(arts and crafts)...

Out of 10 there´s only one good one...rest is sold "as is"...

#10 is kept-rest sold "as is"-and finally,when rest got sold you do enter market with #10...

That´s all.

Simple,Stupid,Common practice...(way of market)

(and i do know in fact-speaking as an Stonemason here,19 years practice in back)

LOL!

Time to wonder(?)-rather not...time for critical analysis?-rather Yep

Christian

[cabowen]

There is something going on that is not exactly cricket; either someone in Japan is making these on the side, which is illegal, or someone is making them somewhere else (China?), which should be spelled out...From the workmanship, it is someone with skill-probably they have no name of their own and can do better by faking.

 

Make no mistake, these are gimei.

[Adrian S]

Guys,

 

It is a sad fact that old gimei from previous generations are a problem in our field of collecting. Frankly I see no reason at all, with our level of mass communication and technology that we need to put up with "brand new gimei" in any shape or form. If a mei needs to be put on these blades at all, then let it be some nondescript fictional swordsmith. The prices these swords are selling for is firmly in the Iaito market. I can't see it making much difference in the price attained.

 

The problem is, all good intentions ( just for the iaito market, no big deal ) don't stop these blades from circulating into the future and being onsold in later years. How will our generation be viewed to future collectors to allow this to carry on.

 

Tell you what, how about every brand new gimei we see posted we can use as a "kanji kantei " example, post copies of the real deal, examine the stokes, layouts etc.

 

As a last comment. I would love to buy one of these blades myself if not for the dodgy mei. Give us a break!

 

cheers,

[Lee Bray]

Not saying they are. But just hypothetically speaking, I think it is funny that if you had a modern smith create these, and sign them with a unique name, and then mount them in modern repro koshirae, market them and sell them openly as high end modern custom swords, made to order...you would probably fetch considerably more than these sell for. Just saying....

 

I think you are wrong, hypothetically.

Unless you have made your name over some time selling quality steel, modern swords go for very little.

A couple of the best names like Howard Clark and Antony DiCristofano seem to sell with regularity but most sit on their stock for some time.

The most active sword forum around is SBG which deals mostly with swords swords below US$300, fully mounted.

Chinese forges are knocking them out by the hundreds.

One of the most popular low end, fully mounted functional swords sells for US$80!

US$80!

(repeated for effect)

Even custom swords from Chinese forges are selling for a few hundred as opposed to thousands.

I think a skillful Chinese smith would welcome the chance to create some slightly better swords for this dubious market.

 

Just look at the nakago on these pieces... my H.Clark and modern Chinese katana have more patina on them and they are just several years old. These nakago that Adrian linked to were filed and stamped last week.

[David Flynn]

Brian, please don't allow your personal like for this seller to cloud your judgment . I was the one who brought this up last time. If you remember they even had George Trotter scratching his head for a while. In one post, it was suggested that the seller respond to the questions raised. This he failed to do. So, here we are now, in a repeat situation.

[Brian]

David,

I don't have any personal like or dislike for the seller at all. If you read what I wrote, I didn't justify anything at all.

In fact, I hinted that selling gimei fakes (whether this is what is happening or not) was inadvisable as I thought there was better ways to sell those more honestly. I don't see how this comes out as anything more that a hypothetical critique.

I am also not going to make direct claims of anything as all we have is conjecture, albeit from educated reviewers.

 

Brian

[Adrian S]

Here is the reply from the seller to my inquiry about where these swords came from.

 

"They came from a dealer in Japan. Who made them, and where they came from, prior to that is unknown. I thought of Chinese sources as a possibility, but it would be difficult for them to enter Japan, unless they were good enough to be registered as legal Nihonto in Japan. Another possiblilty is that they were produced by some starving swordmaker for black market purpose. Registered sword smiths are limited to producing two blades per month, and not many can make a living at this rate. There was a case in the past where a swordsmith produced many unlicensed blades outside of this two per month limitation, and sold them cheap to a group of dealers. The blades were then polished and mei added, and sold overseas where the blades don't need to be registered.

 

The sword market in Japan is dynamic and mysterious at times, and anything is possible when money can be made.

 

Good luck,

 

Mike"

 

My further question...how can a Japanese dealer risk his licence and possible legal action by illegally exporting these obviously unregistered swords out of Japan, especially in these numbers...hhmmm. Anybody got an answer to that! You only need to get caught once and its all over Rover. I suggested to the dealer to have them signed "Chugoku (China) kuni ju whatever " and not to dishonour the name of respected gendaito smiths by selling brand new gimei. Frankly the prices he has been getting doesn't seem to be worth the risk to anyone.

 

cheers,

[Jussi Ekholm]

Unfortunately, even I knew who would be the seller when reading the OP, and I'm a novice who does not focus on gendaito...

 

I agree with Lee, there are lots of very skilled smiths in China, and their work sells for very little money (apart from the few big names). Some Japanese smiths have been teaching Chinese smiths in the art, and of course skilled artisans can make very good work. Lots of forges in China have recently started to make their own "tamahagane" swords as there is a demand for these in the western market. Some of these are very good based from the pictures (I have not seen one in person as they cost more than I would spend on Chinese made replica), and for some of them they issue their own certifications in China. When the forge says for the smith to sign in traditional manner, he writes the mei like Japanese, I've seen Chinese made custom tamahagane swords being signed for Heisei (and to be honest I was very confused to find a mei that had Japanese name, saku and dated to Heisei, when the sword was made by Chinese forge).

 

When Japanese smiths have taught the skills to good Chinese smiths, it's no wonder we get good Japanese style swords from China too. Of course now the possibility of fresh gimei swords is maybe bit higher. And as the paycheck of an average Chinese smith is very little, yet they are well skilled. I could easily see the good Chinese smiths making some gimei swords.

 

There are good smiths in Japan, Europe, USA, China etc. the only difference is that good smith earns a lot less in China. Like I said the work of the very few top Chinese swordsmiths sell for very high prices, but there are plenty of good smiths who don't get much. Of course the cost of living in these countries is very different but I strongly feel that good Chinese swordsmiths are much underpaid to relation to good smiths in higher cost of living countries.

 

I'm not saying anything on the seller referred in the OP as I do not know him.

[David Flynn]

I apologise Brian, I must have been caught up in semantics.

[runagmc]

 

The real problems will start when these gimei gendaito will be for sale by other amateur/pro dealers. Now they are for sale by Komonjo they are easy to spot (same kind of photos, same seller), but with with photos with different light, angles, mounted etc...It won't be that easy to make the difference.

 

To me they are obviously made by the same hand. I think the real issue is exactly what Bruno pointed out earlier... Unfortunately I'm not sure if anything can be done to stop this kind of stuff...

 

If I bought one, the first thing I would do is crush the fake mei... :D

[Bruno]

To me they are obviously made by the same hand. I think the real issue is exactly what Bruno pointed out earlier...

 

To me they are easier to recognize because yes, they look all made by the same guy but especially because they are for sale by the same seller. We are used to see them there, but in a different context I bet more than one can be deceived.

 

To be honest with you, before I thought they were iai-to (made with short cuts) but made by the smiths which mei were on the nakago.

[cabowen]

There have been fakes made of recent smiths in Japan for a long time-I can't count how many fake Sadakatsu, Miyairi Akihira, Takahashi Sadatsugu, etc., blades I have seen in Japan. Yasukuni blades are being faked in numbers now as well. As has been mentioned, there are two things driving this: smiths without work and high prices for big name blades. We know this is nothing new and has been going on for maybe 1000 years so it can be considered "tradition" :lol: I have heard many stories of dealers buying up unsigned blades, having mei added, and selling them off. Yes, it is illegal and one wonders if it is worth the risk...Some apparently think it is.

 

After I had lived in Japan for a year or so, I had a big pile of torokusho from swords I had sent back to the US. At the time, I had no idea there was an export procedure that required they be turned in (whoops). I remember mentioning this to a dealer or two and they were salivating over them. It wasn't until I was schooled by a sword smith as to why that I understood that they were like licenses to print money. There are all sorts of games being played in Japan...

 

The upshot is that even gendai collectors have to raise their game and study so they can recognize gimei.

[J Reid]

Another possiblilty is that they were produced by some starving swordmaker for black market purpose. Registered sword smiths are limited to producing two blades per month, and not many can make a living at this rate. There was a case in the past where a swordsmith produced many unlicensed blades outside of this two per month limitation, and sold them cheap to a group of dealers. The blades were then polished and mei added, and sold overseas where the blades don't need to be registered.

- Mike said this in a reply? Sounds like he is coming clean.. "Hypothetically". We can agree he knows more than he is saying, right?

 

I find this to be the most likely situation. It's completely possible to have this done in Japan and to get away with it too. It's not rocket science. I do not think these are of Chinese origin. I think they are signed gimei to cool the trail, not raise value. I agree with brian that if they were unsigned and mounted that currently these could command higher prices being most likely made in Japan by a Japanese person out of tamahagane and water quenched making them true "nihonto". This being the key factor as to why Chinese smiths make nothing for their work.

[cabowen]

The blades were then polished and mei added, and sold overseas where the blades don't need to be registered.

 

They still must be registered in Japan before they are shipped so this is still illegal. All swords must be registered in Japan and all newly made swords must be signed. When one exports swords, you must turn in the torokusho. If you mail out a sword without export papers, you will get in trouble. Ask me how I know.....

[J Reid]

If you mail out a sword without export papers, you will get in trouble. Ask me how I know.....

Haha okay. So this is the purpose for signing. To register.