New member need help with books

[Marc]

Greetings everyone,

 

First thing I'll present myself: my name is Marc-André. I'm a JSA practitioner and also a nihonto lover. I've been reading this forum for a couple of month now and here is my first post. So I'm new to this forum and to nihonto in general.

 

I think I'm now ready for my first big buy... Books! I don't have any at home, except Japanese swords cultural icons of a nation by roach and Samurai la grace des guerriers from the Montreal exposition of Dr Béliveau collection.

 

So I now need your help for my first serious buy. I have fixed a budget between 250$ and 500$, including shipping. This is what I was thinking, considering what I have read here and elsewhere:

The arts of Japanese sword. Less than 50$

The connoisseur's book of Japanese sword. About 70$

Modern Japanese sword and swordsmith. About 40$

100 masterpieces from the collection of compton. About 130$

Token Bijutsu - The Journal of Japanese Fine Art Swords: Collected Essays, Volume 1 & 2 : about 270$

Art and the sword, 8 volumes. About 210$

 

Those prices include shipping fees.What do you guys think of this list? Also, since my maximum budget is 500$, which books should I priories?

 

Thanks in advance for all you advices,

 

Marc-André

[NihontoEurope]

Welcome Marc-André,

 

What are your future plans?

 

Being a collector?

 

Check this out:

 

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=2549

 

/Martin

[hxv]

Marc-Andre,

 

Get these two books first:

 

The connoisseur's book of Japanese sword. (on your list)

Facts and Fundamentals of Japanese Swords by Nakahara (currently not on your list).

 

Look on ebay and you will find them for about $100+shipping. Welcome to NMB!

 

Regards,

Hoanh

[Marc]

Hi Martin,

 

Thank you for the link Martin, there is a lot of lecture to start. Now about what I want to do in the futur, this is less clear. I'm not a collector by nature, but my love for nihontos seems to be stronger than my nature :D . I would like to better understand the characteristics of nihonto and to be able to make the difference between eras, schools, makers, etc. I'm not sure I'm clear, don't hesitate to ask me more questions.

 

Marc-André

[Marc]

Thank you Hoanh,

 

I'll start to browse the net for these 2.

 

Marc-André

[Ken-Hawaii]

Martin, I think Marc-André is looking for some guidance on his first set of reference books to develop a knowledge baseline.

 

You've done a pretty good job, Marc-André, including a couple of must-haves:

 

The Connoisseur's Book of Japanese Swords (of course! If you knew everything in this book, you'd be a true expert)

Yumoto, The Samurai Sword: A Handbook (very inexpensive & a great starter reference)

Nakahara, Facts and Fundamentals of Japanese Swords

 

Those would be my base library, but please spend some time on http://www.nihontomessageboard.com/faq.html checking out Brian's book recommendations.

 

And, by the way, I am mightily impressed that you are buying books before your first blade, Marc-André!! You're certainly an exception!

 

Ken

[NihontoEurope]

Marc,

 

The ones Hoanh mentioned are great, but also look at:

 

The Japanese Sword - Kanzan Sato

 

Also...look here:

http://www.japaneseswordbooksandtsuba.com/

 

He is a member here and sometimes he has great deals.

 

Grey Doffin is the gentleman's name.

 

/Martin

[Stephen]

Marc...your location? i have The Samurai Sword by Yumoto, thats yours if shippning is not out of USA other wise ill need a bump for shipping...you can get it on Amazon for around 20$ Its the starter book even thou more advance will poo poo it...should be in anyones Nihonto book shelf.

 

no need to buy a ton of books to start out with, Nihonto does take some digesting, the Compton book you listed is eye candy only but what eye candy.

 

starter books on Amazon

 

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss? ... nese+sword

[Marc]

First I must say thank you all. I wouldn't ask for a warmer welcome. But the speed of your response is really amazing.

 

Stephen, many thanks for your offer. I'm in Montreal, Canada. I found the book on amazon for 15$, free shipping. This price is so cheap, I can't ask you to go thru the trouble of shipping your book.

 

So if I read well your posts, I should wait before buying more "rare" and pricey books and concentrate on " general" books. This 3 books would be 110$ including shipping.

 

Facts and Fundamentals of Japanese Swords: A Collector's Guide

The Connoisseur's Book Japanese Swords

The Samurai Sword: A Handbook

 

The Japanese Sword - Kanzan Sato is a little harder to find, but I found one used for 45 $ shipped.

 

So I should be good with those 4. I would like to ad a book on gendaito, can you suggest me one?

 

Marc-André

[Lance]

If it doesn't break your budget I'd recommend getting the Compton Collection as well. The other books are full of great information, and with the Compton book's excellent large format photography and descriptions it's probably one of the better ways to help recognize the varying schools/types of workmanship described in the other books (aside from handling the real thing of course!)

Regards,

Lance

[Stephen]

http://www.amazon.com/Japanese-Sword-Ar ... nese+sword

 

 

lower on the page... looks like Sato book is less and used even better.

 

Frequently Bought Together

+ +

Price for all three: $113.16

 

Show availability and shipping details

 

Buy the selected items together This item: The Japanese Sword (Japanese Arts Library) by Kanzan Sato Hardcover $26.49

The Connoisseurs Book of Japanese Swords by Kokan Nagayama Hardcover $50.71

Facts and Fundamentals of Japanese Swords: A Collector's Guide by Nobuo Nakahara Hardcover $35.96

[Marc]

Thank you Stephen, but the book The Japanese Sword (Japanese Arts Library) is not available for shipping to Canada. Something must be really dangerous about it .

 

Marc-André

[Stephen]

maybe not from that seller check used bet you can find a shipper.

 

PM sent

[Dr Fox]

Welcome Marc Andre.

 

Denis.

[Marc]

Thank you Denis for the welcome. And Ken, this link is really helpful. It seems to have all the information a newbie would need. So I made my order. It is:

 

Facts and Fundamentals of Japanese Swords: A Collector's Guide

The Connoisseur's Book Japanese Swords

The Samurai Sword: A Handbook

The Japanese Sword - Kanzan Sato

"The Arts of the Japanese Sword" ( I find it cheap)

 

I'm a big reader, but I think I'll have for a couple of months. And yes it is hard not to buy anything, since there is what looks like good deals on the classified.

 

So again thanks a lot, I think you will see me in the future with newbie questions.

 

Marc-André

[Dick Tait]

This topic came at just the right time for me.

 

After visiting a militaria fair (the only place in England, it seems, for me to actually see and handle Japanese swords, apart from the two I own) - I realised that I needed some more money!

 

So, I liquidated some assets; my collection of £1 & £2 coins (don't scoff: face value £180 - net return £1387!) to invest in a) fittings & services to restore the koshirae for my Wakizashi (an on-going project - takes longer than I thought!) and b) some books.

 

The books I bought, based on the above posts, are:

1) The Art of the Japanese Sword (Leon and Hiroko Kapp / Yoshindo Yoshirara)

2) The Japanese Sword (Kanzan Sato)

3) Facts & Fundamentals of Japanese Swords (Nobuo Nakahara)

4) The Samurai Sword (John Yumoto)

I also bought:

5) A Beginners Guide to Japanese Swords (Bon Dale - The To-Ken Society of Great Britain)

6) Japanese Swordsmiths (Volumes I & II) (WM Hawley)

These two previously belonged to Ron Gregory and were sold to me by Richard Fuller - nice provenance methinks!

I already have:

7) The Connoisseur's Book of Japanese Swords (Kokan Nagayama)

I intend to buy:

Japanese Swords of the Bizen Tradition (Darcy Brockbank / Robert Benson)

9) Japanese Swords of the Soshu Tradition (Darcy Brockbank / Robert Benson)- When it comes out!

10) The Index of Japanese Swordsmiths (Markus Sesko) - When it comes out!

 

One thing I think is definitely missing for the beginner/enthusiast is a pocket book - something that could be carried around in order to quickly refer to; in order to inform, remind & confirm. Does such a book exist already (or will I have to write one!)?

 

After all this (I think I am all booked out and perhaps a little bit wiser!) I will begin search out some Nihonto or Togosu.

 

Next stop the next military fair!

 

Thanks to all for your advice!

[paulb]

Marc-Andre,

Let me agree with Ken and congratulate you on focussing on books as a starting point. All those recomended are excellent works. However let me throw in a wors of caution. I am not sure I would class Facts and fundenmentals as a beginners book. While an excellent and thought provoking work I think it does raise some controversial ideas which contradict some more traditonal concepts. without a basic grounding in the majority view this can confuse.

Also look at the publications by Markus Sesko all offer a wealth of information at good value for money prices (and in English)

Good luck

 

Paul

[Ford Hallam]

However let me throw in a wors of caution.

'a sausage of caution' :D I love these obscure Old English expressions, so colourful!

 

And while I appreciate Paul's concerns over "Facts and fundenmentals" it might be more useful for those theories that are controversial to be pointed out rather than suggesting avoiding the entirety of the book.

 

I actually don't agree that one ought first to be grounded in the 'majority view' at all. I think theories should be more properly understood on their own merits and not simply be accepted because that's what everyone else believes. There's a truism that may apply here; "if every one thinks the same thing then perhaps only one person is doing the thinking"

 

This also reminds me of a young woman I was speaking with a little while ago. On the subject of faith she offered; "I'm so lucky to have been raised a Christian because now I am free to choose what I believe"

[paulb]

If we had a spool chucker on this site idiot typists like me would be less open to redicule :D

I dont disagree Ford and I am not suggesting avoiding the book entirely. what has always worried me was the euphoric comments when it first came out such as "if you only buy one book on the subject this is the one to buy"

It isnt. while having alternative opinions is perfectly valid they only become alternative if one knows what the majority view is. At that point you can choose what you believe. So I am not suggesting dont read it just read with caution and alongside other work. It also wouldnt be the first book I read on the subject.

 

re the young christian lady- I brought both of my two up in a non faith environment now one wants to be an anglican priest and the other also took a masters in theology just so she could argue with him

Makes Christmas dinner interesting not least because their mother is what I loosely describe as an aging hippy pagan weather witch (of the nicest type of course)

 

Final comment Ford, Just because something is a traditionally held view doesnt make it wrong. Because a new radical theory appears we shouldnt allow it to replace known wisdom without considering the detail.

(not saying that is what you are suggesting so please dont get excited )

[Ford Hallam]

Hi Paul,

 

can't say I read any such hyperbolic endorsements myself...I was rather of the opinion that book burning parties were being arranged in certain circles

"if you only buy one book on the subject this is the one to buy"

I'm actually meeting with Paul in Tokyo next week to discuss exactly this issue...among others :D

 

I just feel that as original and well researched/considered material is so hard to come by in English Paul Martin and other translators efforts in that respect ought to be more generously supported.

 

I think radical theories have value even if they are wrong. What they do is force a re-examination of what we think we know and take for granted. But the truth is nothing really changes as a result of reasoned argument and debate. Old ideas are only replaced when those who are invested in them die out and a new generation, familiar with new ideas, replaces them. I think it was Niels Bohr who said that.

 

And of course just because something is traditionally held to be true doesn't negate it but neither does it automatically validate it....all I'm saying is that we ought to think about things even-handedly and objectively.

[paulb]

just to be clear I have no issue with Paul Martin nor his involvement in this. in fact when I contacted him about it when it was published he confirmed the opinions expressed were the authors and did not reflect any opinion of his own (which as the translator it shouldnt)

I am also keen to support any effort to produce material in English which is why I bought this and most of the otheras that have been published this year in English.

[Ford Hallam]

Paul,

 

I've just spent a few hours going through 'Facts & Fundamentals of Japanese Swords (Nobuo Nakahara)' and I think that it is actually a very good introductory text. The only real 'controversy' would be the matter of mumei blades. This covers about 2 pages and with about a further page of explanatory commentary from Paul Martin (the translator) The matter is perfectly well described and intelligent rationale supplied. To suggest that because of this one touchy aspect the wealth of really useful information in the rest of the book should be approached with caution is to do the book a great disservice. Far better, I feel, to merely highlight your disagreement with that aspect and perhaps offer some rationale as to why to disagree.

 

To leave it at ; " I think it does raise some controversial ideas which contradict some more traditional concepts." casts doubt on the work without bothering to show where and how. That's not a critique, it's unfair.

[paulb]

Ford I have neither the time nor energy to get in to a long debate with you on this. Nor do I think I am being unfair. I was simply saying that I did not believe it was the best book to start a study with. Clearly we will disagree on that point. But I do not think we should hijack the OP's thread. He asked for advice I offered some, he doesnt have to take it.

 

edited to add a whinge!

 

Also I do not remember specifically targetting "one touchy area" therefore to suggest my concerns were based on that is both inaccurate and dare I say unfair

[Jean]

I think I can perfectly well understand why the book " facts and fundamentals of the Japanese swords" is not in my opinion an introductory book, it is because it is specialized and technical.

 

All depends on the field of interest of the person.

 

In this case, I shall begin by :

 

1) The Art of the Japanese Sword (Leon and Hiroko Kapp / Yoshindo Yoshirara)

2) Facts & Fundamentals of Japanese Swords (Nobuo Nakahara)

 

For people interested in the development of Nihonto through ages

 

Kanzan Sato book

Nagayama Kokan book

[Ed]

Hi Marc,

Welcome to the NMB. I have just listed quite a few books in the for sale section.

 

You may find something there you like. Here is the direct link: http://yakiba.com/Books_for_sale.htm

 

Good studying, and again welcome.

[Ford Hallam]

Paul,

 

ok, so if you have concerns about other controversial theories presented in the book perhaps you should point them out...failing to do so leaves your 'concern' undefined and therefore still unfair. If you don't have the energy to explain why you feel as you do about the book you're expecting the OP to simply accept your opinion based on what...? No lengthy debate required, just a simple piece of rationale would suffice.

 

And to be frank I really can't find any other point that you might feel is so controversial...hence my assumption. I accept I may well be wrong and you can end our confusion by simply pointing out exactly what bits are of concern...and why.

 

Jean, of course this book is specialised and technical....anything after Yumoto Sensei's book has to be. It's the nature of the subject.

[Lance]

One thing I think is definitely missing for the beginner/enthusiast is a pocket book - something that could be carried around in order to quickly refer to; in order to inform, remind & confirm. Does such a book exist already (or will I have to write one!)?

 

If you were looking for a small book that you could bring with you to use as a reference at an arns fair or flea market to help in identifying a blade a good choice would be "Japanese Sword Blades by Alfred Dobree."

It's relatively small, has diagrams of different blade, hamon, bohi types, and what schools and smiths they are associated with, also has kanji tables for commonly used smith and province names, sort of a light version of Kokan Nagayama's Connoisseur's Guide to Japanese Swords with an extra section for translating mei and date. It's relatively inexpensive, I think under $50, maybe one of the members here who sells books have a copy or 2 for sale?

 

Regards,

Lance

[Jean]

You are right Ford and it is because of this point that people interested in judging Nihonto quality must begin by the Koop and Yoshihara book to know the technical part of the forging and continue by Nakahara book which shall give in clues in the result of the quality of the forge and the way to analyse technically the result of the forge.

 

Same for people interested in the evolution of Nihonto through ages:

 

Kanzan Sato for a general overview;

Nagayama Kokan for kantei to school and time of forge - this book does not take into account the quality of blades

 

At the end, both branches of this above alternative must join

 

There are others specialized litterature for advance student, the Nihonto Koza and Albert Y. Letters.

The translation of AFU of the first one is difficult to read as he has tried to translate word by word the original books. It's a PITA to read it (for me as a stranger) I prefer by far Kenji Mishina translation or Paul Martin translation.

 

Albert Y. Letters: I have them and open them when I want to compare litterature on a smith or a school with other books. Members are going to tear me down but each time I open them I have always a feeling of déjà vu. Nothing original, perhaps because I had already read a lot on the topics before I bought it.

 

There are of course a lot of other books that I have voluntary omitted to keep it simple, kodogu included

[paulb]

Ford,

1. I have no axe to grind one way or the other on this. to be clear let me confirm that I think this work is well written contains some interesting ideas and is worth being in anybodies library.

2. When it first came out, whether you remember it or not, it created a lot of excitement and some were recommending it as the first choice book for the beginner. I think some such comments were made on this board and a search may help you find them.

while accepting the book had value, was well presented and clear I felt at the time that it was not the best book for beginners. Personally I found some of its ideas a little unsettling (that is not a bad thing). You mentioned the pages on shortening which certainly was one of the issues. There were other points which I confess I dont remember in detail which I also thought strange, but I it is some time since I read it . What I do remember is feeling concerned that this was not the best beginners book. Is it worth buying and reading? absolutley. I just dont think it should be the first pages turned.

3. The OP asked for opinions I gave one, it was that an opinion it may be accepted or not as I said before. The potentasl to cause confusion may just relate to me.

4 I may well lack both the intelligence and certainly the elloquence you portray in attacking the comments I made. I lied when I said I lacked the time and energy the truth is I cant be bothered to get in a school debating club type discussion with you where you attack some percieved injustice. There was no slight intended just a concern raised. I am annoyed with myself that I have allowed you to drag me in to his lengthy debate over something which I dont believe warrants it. However in the many years I have attempted to contribute here I cannot remember it ever being suggested that something I said was unfair. Being even handed, open minded and fair is something I strive to achieve, but I am sure there are times when I fail

If in this case the moderators think my comments are unfair, unjust or unreasonable they are free to delete them.

I think I have done this to death. I have no wish to continue in what I think for any other reader will become an increasingly boring correspondence which has little to do with the original post.

[Dick Tait]

If you were looking for a small book that you could bring with you to use as a reference at an arms fair or flea market to help in identifying a blade a good choice would be "Japanese Sword Blades by Alfred Dobree."

It's relatively small, has diagrams of different blade, hamon, bohi types, and what schools and smiths they are associated with, also has kanji tables for commonly used smith and province names, sort of a light version of Kokan Nagayama's Connoisseur's Guide to Japanese Swords with an extra section for translating mei and date.

Thank you Lance, I will see if I can lay my hands on a copy.