location of Hizen sword production

[Peter Bleed]

Friends,

Please let me beg the help of Board for information on the location of the forges of the Hizen smiths. Do we know where the Hizen smiths actually worked? Have any travelers made it to Saga-ken and found any information about forge or “arsenal” location. And while I am asking, can anyone point me to information about the development and use of artillery by Hizen troops during the Edo Period?

Peter

[Alex A]

Hi Peter, i read the Tadayoshi forge was in what was once Nagasa-mura (Takasa-Mura today), a small village on the Nagasaki highway. As for the rest, not sure, the book "the school of hizen tadayoshi", may help, as mentioned below.

Alex.

[Bazza]

Friends,

Please let me beg the help of Board for information on the location of the forges of the Hizen smiths. Do we know where the Hizen smiths actually worked? Have any travelers made it to Saga-ken and found any information about forge or “arsenal” location. And while I am asking, can anyone point me to information about the development and use of artillery by Hizen troops during the Edo Period?

Peter

Peter,

Without checking, I have a memory that Roger Robertshaw discusses this in his book??? Either that or he mentioned it to me in one of his visits to Oz about the finding of a Hizen kera somewhere.

 

With regard to artillery, wikipedia addresses Armstrong cannon used in the Boshin War http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saga_Domain. Anbd in the thread viewtopic.php?f=1&t=8325&start=15 our Own Dear Roger wrote:

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The Hizen Kaji did use foreign steel - they had a teppo factory just 25 yds down the highway from the Tadayoshi forge, and there was the cannon reverbatory factory 0.5Km back from the Nagasaki highway still in the Nagase-Machi 'area' under Hashimoto control. Interesting also how some Hizen tsuba appear very 'Namban' in nature.

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So a "cannon factory" would indicate cannon use and Roger's words perhaps suggest it was early Edo, but this link:

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http://books.google.com.au/books?id=4N0 ... CFMQ6AEwBQ

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says "The first reverberatory furnace (used in the making of cannon) was set up by the Saga clan (Hizen) in 1850 and was ready for use in 1852."

 

This interesting link http://www.masuko.com/English/company/Cannon.html suggests that cannon making and use was confined to the Late Edo period, supported by a Christies sale description here http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/arms ... tails.aspx.

 

In discussing the Shimabara Rebellion, this link http://www.uwosh.edu/home_pages/faculty ... orrea.html suggests that cannon were used in the siege with this passage "Captured prisoners revealed that no food remained in the fortress; and neither did any powder or cannon balls remain," though no mention of cannon firing during the Rebellion.

 

Finally, antique cannon are mentioned here http://www.japaneseweapons.net/hinawajy ... nglish.htm in Seki - in any event it is a good read for the teppo people.

 

Best regards,

Barry Thomas.

[John A Stuart]

There was no one place. A good start for earlier Hizen would be Saga city. Nagase-machi, Hyogo-machi, Kanzaki-machi. Maybe check Hamazaki area, Shiota area, Tsukazaki area etc. etc.

As to cannon; the Japanese under Oda received cannon from the Portuguese and later English and Japanese two pounders (locally made)were used on iron reinforced ships such as were used against the Mouri at Kizagawaguchi. As to land based cannon, we have to define the size you mean. Nobunaga ordered Hideyoshi to build more powerful teppo in 1571. Then the Kunitomo gunsmiths built two 9-shaku-long teppo cannon (2.7 meters) for 200 momme shot.

 

"...on the 6th day of the 11th month of Genki 2 (22 December 1571) they were presented at Gifu [to Lord Nobunga]. Lord Nobunaga's happiness was unending. He immediately asked for them to be demonstrated. And from his horse, he watched people shoot them. In the mountains and valleys the shot smashed through every cliff. Truly the art of the great firearm, that is, the cannon (ozutsu), made people raise eyes and brows in surprise." (p.136 Olof G. Lindin's Tanegashima "The Arrival of Europe in Japan".)

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Baz mentioned cannon at Shimabara, but, also remember the Osaka sieges. John

[Brian]

Excellent info Bazza and John.

I think we need to get Roger in here..he is a member and has a vast knowledge of this field. His publications and Kinu-ko manuscript are a must have!

Contains passages such as this one (hope Roger won't mind if I quote a small exerpt)

 

The manuscript tells us that Tadayoshi 8th learnt to make Teppō. It also tells us he learnt cannon

making – Tsukiji Reverbatory Cannon factory is a stone’s throw away from the Tadayoshi sword forge.

Interestingly, Tadayoshi made cannons in Nagasaki, presumably for Government forces involved in the

Satsuma rebellion. He was therefore instrumental in the downfall of the Samurai and his own profession.

 

Brian

[Alex A]

Thats interesting Brian, who would have thought!..

 

Alex

[Peter Bleed]

This Board is just wonderful. Thank you Barry, John, Brian. And obviously, Roger is a prime resource.

Here's the deal, I have heard that there may be an effort to recognize the pre-Meiji industrial facilities of northern Kyushu. Having been involved in trying to assess premodern artillery debris as archeology, I would love to help with Japanese research on this topic. Sword collectors should also make sure that the contribution of sword production are recognized in this effort.

As a collector of Sendai shinto, I have regularly - even on this Board but always with tongue-in-cheek - teased collectors of Hizen-to. Sendai and Hizen are the bookends of Shinto, afterall. Now I am wishing that I had built my library on the Hizen side of this topic.

Again, thanks for the help.

Peter

P.S. BTW, masame rules