Strange Nakago ana

[kissakai]

I am photographing some tsuba in a UK museum and found these that I don’t understand

I would welcome any comments

 

 

This one has a very strange nakago ana

 

 

Huge nakago ana

 

 

 

Rectangular nakago ana

 

 

 

 

And for something completely different

These look as if they were never intended for mounting on a sword (there are three of this type in the museum) they are all around 100 x 95 x 3mm

Are they a tourist souvenir?

 

 

 

 

 

Grev UK

[Alex A]

The first one is very large, bit like the one on Eds recent post.

 

Alex

[george trotter]

I can't answer your question, but I really like the little heron? on the branch on the second one.

The last one looks again like the type we discussed on the "design intrudes into the seppadai" matter recently...maybe not made to be mounted and covered by seppa?

I suppose a good place to start to answer your question would be for you to tell us what the museum label descriptions said in each case?

 

Regards,

[Marius]

1. tsuba for bokken, see similar here: http://yamabushiantiques.com/BM%20Early ... 0Tsuba.htm\

2. tsuba for yoroi doshi tanto

3. looks very bad, anyway...

4 & 5 - hamamono

[kaigunair]

4&5: Not sure if hamamono, maybe better called Shiiremono? There's a recent thread on these. I have a similar tsuba which I think the workmanship is pretty nice. Admittedly, not meant to be mounted, hence the small/decorative nakago ana, but I like the design and execution. Wouldn't mind having that one at all , but I see how it might not appeal to the iron tsuba fans....

[george trotter]

Hi Mariuszk,

would a bokken tsuba have hitsu?...or was this a normal tsuba that was made into a bokken tsuba?

I'm not knowledgeable on tosogu, but with number 4/5 by Isshiken Okinari the workmanship looks like very high quality....to me this looks too good to be hamamono for overseas...maybe what they call shiiremono?

Just thinking out loud,

Edit: Oh I see this is already mentioned.

[Dr Fox]

Grev

 

No comments on what they are! but the standard of photography is stunning, they hit me right where I live. Thanks.

Denis.

[kissakai]

Thanks for all the info - it has all helped me

 

Dennis

I'm glad you like the photography

I've taken photo's of 275 tsuba (550 images) mainly iron, just another 250 tsuba to photograph in June

I'd like to get these images put into a professionally produced tsuba book

The nice thing about these is they have not been on display since 1930 (the date is a clue to the museum)

I'm not prepared to say which museum it is as I'm still discussing the details (it is at a good will stage so I'd rather not have any one else contact them if they know which museum it is) with the museum and I would also appreciated it if no one made any guesses

I wasn't sure if the images were good enough for publication so I appreciated your kind words

 

 

Grev

[Alan Morton]

Hi Grev,

 

I would agree with Dennis and compliment you on the

 

photos of the tsuba . I look at tsuba in photos all the time

 

in old and new books and the net and always admire the shots taken

 

by RT and RKG,and yours are very good.

 

Alan

[Dr Fox]

Grev

 

For me the essence in your work is the lighting, and the ability to capture the fine detail, I am no tsuba expert, but so much of the joy in fittings is in the fine detail. As to your comments in respect of museum, I totally see where you are coming from.

Cheers

Denis.

 

Added later. If you dont submit your work at this standard, then I feel others will not have the opportunity, that we have had here! (although only a little taster lol.) but I will get off the book subject quickly at this moment in time.

Cheers Denis.

[kissakai]

Hi George

These are the descriptions you requested:

 

1 92x85x5.0mm - Umetada - 16C - 19C

Iron, mokko-shaped, pitted surface, chased and inlaid in gold and silver, sage on a rock (Depiction of Chinnen and his dragon, Takkai and his soul, and Gama sennin and his toad).

Reverse: Landscape with houses by a river and mountains. Raised rim

 

2 53x52x6.0mm - Umetada - 16C - 19C

Iron, oval, with crenulated edge, chased and inlaid with gold, silver and copper, branch with kingfisher, moon rising behind clouds.

Reverse: a spray of bamboo. For a tanto or dagger

 

3 70x67x3.9mm - Kyōto - 16C - 18C

Iron, oval, with flying geese among clouds, water wheels, stream, crest in positive silhouette, rounded rim, slightly pitted surface

 

4 105x99x3.5mm – Nara - Isshiken Okinari (Horiye)

Niguronomè (copper bronze), large quadrilateral, with rounded sides and concave surfaces, in low relief, in silver, copper, bronze and alloys with No dancer. Raised rounded rim.

Reverse: tea ceremony utensils, chased and engraved

 

 

Grev UK

[docliss]

While I agree with George that Grev’s tsuba 4/5 is inscribed ISSHIKEN OKINARI with kao, I cannot agree with his high opinion of its quality. Horie Okinari (H 07470.0), a student of Hamano Shōzui and of Omori Teruhide, and a retainer of the Hachisuke Daimyō of Awa, is rated as a Joko artist in Kinkō Meikan, where his mei is illustrated on p.58a-d. The illustrated kao are quite unlike that of Grev’s tsuba.

 

Grev’s illustration is of a tsuba of very poor quality – quite unlike the work produced by this outstanding artist, working in the mid-Edo period – and is clearly gimei, as is the majority of work bearing this artist's mei.

 

John L.

[Geraint]

And just to add to the mix I would be very surprised if that last tsuba were anything other than brass. Like one or two others I have succumbed to the desire to own one of these and the plate is certainly brass. It has been patinated to a subdued colour but on exposed areas this has worn off to reveal brass.

[george trotter]

Hi Again Grev,

Thanks for the label descriptions... they don't really help with a pointer to the tsuba's purpose unfortunately.

The descriptions as to purpose given by Mariuszk seems the most logical...don't know about the hitsu on number 1 though (probably a "re-used" normal tsuba?).

Just on John's comment on my "high opinion" of item 4/5 standard of work, I was stating this opinion in relation to Mariuszk's comment that it was hamamono and in this context I think the standard of work is quite high (IMHO) so it is perhaps as kaigunair suggests, it is shiiremono (in the sense of local market collectors) rather than hamamono (in the sense of export trash) ...whichever it is, it does (IMHO) fit your own suggestion of not being intended for mounting.

As I have said before I am not knowledgeable on tosogu and don't collect them, so I didn't look up examples of Okinari's mei or work style to give you an opinion of whether it is gimei, or on the metals and techniques as compared to Okinari's known work as this was not your question... but you can certainly look up the references John gave and decide for yourself.... I will say though, that as a stand alone piece of carving/metalwork, I think it is quite good work.

 

I hope this helps,

[docliss]

…it is shiiremono (in the sense of local market collectors) rather than hamamono (in the sense of export trash) …

I am a little unhappy at the recent tendency to label hamamono simply as being ‘trash’, and at the apparent distinction being made between these and shiiremono. One has only to study the late masterworks collected by Bigelow, Weld and Spaulding, and presented to the Museum of Fine Arts, Boston, to appreciate the exceptional quality of these works. Some of these were commissioned directly from the artists and some were purchased from recognised dealers; all were for export. What do we call these, if not 'hamamono'?

 

I feel that the whole subject requires clarification. Can any member please help?

 

John L.

[MauroP]

Hi everybody,

this forum has already discussed (several times) the concepts of hamamono (浜物 - stuff from Yokohama) and shiiremono (仕入物 - ready-made stuff). John Stuart has also introduced the concept of presentation or dedication tsuba (kenjō tsuba - 献上鐔). See the following topic:

http://www.nihontomessageboard.com/nmb/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=14939

BTW some tsuba defined hamamono got a NBTHK Tobuketsu Hozon.

To sum up what I've learned:

Hamamono usually were hight quality tsuba, not intended to be mounted but to be sold to (very rich) western tourists;

Shiiremono were low quality tsuba, but produced for practical purposes and usually mounted on swords;

Kenjō tsuba were hight quality tsuba, not intended to be mounted but used as a gift between Japanese high society members. Of course some tsuba can be defined hamamono and kenjō as well.

Bye, Mauro

[george trotter]

Wow, from the many previous thread comments from "the knowledgeable" over the years I have come to think that hamamono were just dismissed as "export junk". (I'm glad now that I said "I like it" whenever I thought it had merit).

Now, after a lengthy discussion on a recent thread on the superiority of shiiremono , we are being told that shiiremono are even more "junky" than hamamono.

I wish you tosogu guys would get your act together

[Brian]

George,

We are not saying anything of the sort. This is all an attempt to put things yet again into neat boxes for classification. When instead, it all needs to be taken on a case by case basis.

Just like the fact that we call all Showato mass produced (when Gandaito are actually Showato too) and have done that for convenience...perhaps we will have to start calling the lower end export pieces Hamamono and the better stuff Shiiremono..when they aren't when you beak it down.

Somewhere we have to come to a common ground in order to be able to speak about stuff.

So no..not all Hamamono are junk. Some are superb, but made for rich tourists, Westerners or collectors. Shiiremono similar, but perhaps more for the local market or higher end customer not willing to wait for a custom order. Or whatever....but we need to stop taking our classifications so seriously, since the alternative is to have no name for these types of fittings.

 

Brian

[Jean]

Mauro,

 

Here is one:

 

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=10903&hilit=Hakogaki

[MauroP]

I have just found a Tsuba box I had totally forgotten...

Hi Jean,

thanks for your fine example. Anyway we've a problem here: you have either really a faulty memory or too many tsuba! LOL Bye, Mauro