Saya Making issues

[Curgan]

I would like to have shirasaya made for some of my blades. Due to very strict custom regulations I wouldn't like to ship them outside Greece. So, my only option is to make them domestically.

 

Unfortunately, this will be my first project and I have no firther experience. Luckily, however, I have a friend of mine who is a wood carver and will do the dirth work for me (under my instructions ofcourse).

 

I am still not sure if this is a good idea or not and I would like some advice from more experienced members.

 

I have read online instructions (some with pictures and some without) and found the video tutorials from jswords at youtube, but still any further assistance would be more than welcome.

 

My thanks in advance for your good advice!

[runagmc]

If the swords are high quality, and/or in good polish, I think it would be worth the money to have them built by someone who has experience and has references that can verify their work.

 

If you do it yourself, be careful about what wood and what glue you use, and don't used sandpaper. All these things can damage the sword...

 

If you search the forum, I know this topic has been gone over before...

[nagamaki - Franco]

If you have not already, suggest purchasing the book "Craft of the Japanese Sword," in addition to all else.

[ROKUJURO]

Curgan,

 

there are some videos about SAYA MAKI to be seen on YouTube. If you show these to your woodworking friend he might be able to judge himself if he would be able to make SHIRA SAYA. But as Adam wrote, there is still the side of the materials used. You want to use resin-free, acid-free wood with even and fine grain. As HONOKI/Magnolia is not easy to find I have made SHIRA SAYA from apple-tree wood which seems to work fine. As a toolsmith, I forged my own tools (the chisels) for this purpose, copying Japanese original tools. I also used Japanese planes which are available in Europe.

 

The main thing is to fully understand the purpose of a SHIRA SAYA: it is an almost airtight protection for your blade(s), which in itself should not harm the blade chemically or mechanically. Another side of the project is the shape which should be as close to the originals as possible.

 

I wish you good success!

[Curgan]

Thanks to all for your posts.

 

I have ordered Japanese honoki for this project and I do not intend to use glue. As soon as I will carve the blade shape I will send the wood to a sayashi abroad in order to have the shirasaya finished properly.

 

I have already the "Craft of the Japanese Sword" (will need to check it out) and the videos I was talking about were these from Pavel Bolf.

[GregD]

The assortment of tools I use,have added a few more tools since this picture was taken but I can pretty well get the job done with whats here.My favorites here are the namazori(small yariganna type tools)I like to use these at the habaki pocket and the clearance for the area at the kissaki.The one longer crankneck nomi was one of three that was made to order by a sayashi in Japan(he got the pick of the litter so to speak)its for max. material removal while the small radius planes are for smoothing out the pocket(i think its like cheating but they work great)I also have a Starrett surface plate for checking flatness.

Greg

http://i1095.photobucket.com/albums/i47 ... 0122-1.jpg

[Adrian]

I am very interested in this subject as the wakizashi that I recently purchased came in koshirae but with no shirasaya and the local regulations make shipping it to a sayashi next to impossible. And of course there's no local sayashi. Basically I'm in the same situation as John.

 

Since I sourced all the needed materials I am going to give it a try, so any advice from those with experience in this craft would be greatly appreciated.

[Brian]

Folks,

You all know that this isn't a do-it yourself forum, and we are hesitant to encourage people to do things themselves. I am torn between deciding what can be destructive to a blade, and what won't. I think for the sake of convenience and professionalism, I am going to caution against the posting of how-to info. Feel free to discuss tools and materials...but I don't want us to be responsible for the next guy who sands the inside of his shirasaya and scratches the heck out of an in polish blade. Those who know anything about this subject know the damage that can occur from incorrect materials or techniques.

It is easy to say shirasaya won't hurt a blade, but they can. And then, what is next? Home habaki making? Touch up polishing?

I won't ban the subject, but please keep it off techniques and in depth discussion, or take those to pm. Sayashi spend many years learning how to do what they do, and it is foolish for us to think we can dive right in with a few books and online videos.

John has done right by being cautious and knowing his limits...just don't want to start a trend of others having a go with who-knows-what blades. Please accept this as my attempt to maintain board policy of firstly doing no damage to blades.

 

Brian

[ROKUJURO]

Brian,

 

while I fully understand and support what you are expressing, I would like to mention that it is not in the NMB's responsibility if someone damages his blade(s) by wrong handling or treatment!

 

Instead, I find it a good thing to discuss the properties of a professionally made SHIRA SAYA which in fact may prevent collectors with limited craftsman capacities from trying to make one.

 

I absolutely admire the Japanese craftsmen for their capabilities but with all due respect: they only cook with water - as we say in Germany. So learning to understand their work may in some cases include to give it a personal, very careful try in the respective field. And when you know what you are doing the danger of damage is minimal. This applies in my understanding to SAYAMAKI and TSUKAMAKI as examples, but probably not to polishing.

 

This is only my personal opinion as a trained craftsman.

[Alex A]

I have stated in a recent post that i think the saya is to blame for tiny bent tip on the end of one of my blades. Expert jobs should be left to the experts.

Alex

[Brian]

Jean,

As I said, I am not banning the discussion of shirasaya and how they are made, but I won't let it get into the how-to's of such.

it is not in the NMB's responsibility if someone damages his blade(s) by wrong handling or treatment!

Actually..since most serious collectors regard themselves as just the temporary custodians of these blades for future generations, it is exactly our responsibility to make sure the blades aren't ruined.

 

Brian

[ROKUJURO]

....since most serious collectors regard themselves as just the temporary custodians of these blades for future generations, it is exactly our responsibility to make sure the blades aren't ruined.....

Brian,

 

I understand perfectly what you mean, and I don't encourage people neither to experiment with these valuable artifacts. On the other hand the NMB can only inform and encourage collectors to find a good way of care and conservation. Unfortunately, you cannot prevent people from doing silly things with their swords. In nearly forty years of collecting I have seen and heard of so many incredible cruelties being committed against these arms (not WITH them!) that trying to make a SHIRA SAYA of one's own might be judged as a minor sin.

[Adrian]

I am going to caution against the posting of how-to info. Feel free to discuss tools and materials...but I don't want us to be responsible for the next guy who sands the inside of his shirasaya and scratches the heck out of an in polish blade. Those who know anything about this subject know the damage that can occur from incorrect materials or techniques.

 

 

Brian, this is exactly why I think that techniques should be discussed in detail. When the info is not available, it's easy to make horrible mistakes. However, if the technique is clearly explained by someone who understands it's details, no one who actually has a brain is going to use sandpaper.

 

Allowing the detailed discussions on saya making may help a lot of cheap blades to be properly preserved in the long run. (no one is going to pay 300$ for a shirasaya + 100$ on shipping + 500$ on idiotically applied custom taxes in order to have a shirasaya made by a sayashi for a blade worth 300$)

 

My 2 p, of course.

 

This is very different from attempting to polish the blade, for quite a lot of reasons. I definitely agree that polishing info shouldn't be posted on public forums as the result of such attempts may be totally disastrous.

[Jean]

Sorry Adrian,

 

This is not a do it yourself Forum so for anyone interested, go to PM otherwise the Topic shall be locked.

[Adrian]

Fair enough Jean

 

This being said, I'll add that I already read the chapter called "The Scabbard" from "Craft of the Japanese Sword" (offering a general description of the techniques used by Kazuyuki Takayama) and if anyone can and wants to give me a more detailed advice will be most welcomed .

 

Please us PM to avoid this topic being locked.

[Danocon]

Tricky call but I would agree with Brian this is not a how to forum.

 

PMs sent.

[Adrian]

Thanks a lot Dan

[Danocon]

A word of warning and in keeping with the spirit of protection and guardianship. Sayashi will have a protected area (padded box-etc.) to put the blade when not being used as a pattern or trial fitting. Yes, a poorly made saya can harm a blade but tools and careless handling carry much more potential for catastrophic damage.

 

This would be the single biggest reason I would caution against amateur saya making. The sayashi not only learns the necessary skills to make a proper saya but also the absolutely essential habits to keep the blade safe. It takes only one dropped chisel to chip the edge of an irreplaceable treasure.

[Adrian]

That's a great advice.

 

I think this protected area should be placed higher then the working area, in order to prevent the accidental "flight" of a tool towards it.

[Brian]

For those who haven't read the books or have the knowledge, I just want to explain why sayashi do not use sandpaper inside the saya, no matter how fine or convenenient. All the work is done with chisels and other cutting tools. The reasons for this is that with any abrasive, fine particles can break off and embed inside the saya, and the first time you insert a blade....

That is the tip of the day.

 

Brian

[GregD]

While I can agree with Brian about this not being a "How To" forum his final point about not using sandpaper is probably one of the most important and simplest reasons "why not?"

The sandpaper and saya is a subject iv'e touched on a dozen times before and still got my testies bit off by people that insist they know what they are doing(they've used it a zillionn times before--on their Paul Chen)While carving wood isn't rocket science there still is a purpose for cutting inner surfaces in specific ways to contain the blade properly and to touch or not certain surfaces.All equiptment I use is for cutting or planeing to a finished flat or curved surface,no abrasives.Everything else(shop area)is vacuumed and working surfaces cleaned.I would like to think common sense kicks in while doing this kind of work to keep the sword safely stored while carving.While I dont do too much of this work anymore,I know that there are some very skilled people out there that are capable of doing this work,there are also some that cant turn a screwdriver and insist on polishing a sword with a Dremel.

Greg

[Adrian]

While carving wood isn't rocket science there still is a purpose for cutting inner surfaces in specific ways to contain the blade properly and to touch or not certain surfaces.

 

 

Good point Greg. I think everyone who is considering such a project should read very carefully the relevant part from "Craft of the Japanese Sword", as these details are explained there VERY well.

 

I could post a photo of a page if Brian is OK with it.

[Jean]

Adrian,

 

Emails and PM has just been invented for this, people who want to carry on the subject can very buy the book.

[Paul Martin]

"It isn't rocket science."

 

I spent last summer working with a saya-shi, and I now think it is rocket science. It is years of experience and know-how passed down from teacher to student. It's not just a matter of "not using sand-paper". There are many fine points to be observed. The way the habaki fits in the saya; at what points the sword touches the saya; where to join the two halves; where else to remove a bit more material if it touches the blade at a certain point, etc and so forth. It has to be made with long term preservation in mind. If carved incorrectly, even not using sand paper, it can still cause rusting.

 

It's not just 'cutting a sword shaped hole and slotting it in'. The same as making a sword is not just wrapping a harder piece of steel around a soft piece and hammering it out into the shape of a blade.

 

Sorry to jump in like this, but I found this thread rather frightening.

 

Best

[cabowen]

Very true Paul...

 

One of my closest friends in Japan, Sugiura san, was a top sayashi in Japan. I had him come to the US several times to work. I had him demonstrate at a sword show as well; some readers here may remember meeting him. I watched him make shirasaya many times and he always made it looks so incredibly easy. I tried to make one once. It is anything but easy. His shirasaya were practically works of art in and of themselves. I would often show them to people and ask them where the seam was. Usually, it was invisible unless you looked very closely. It always amazed people how perfectly they saya and tsuka matched.

 

Sugiura san passed away a few weeks ago after a 2 year struggle with cancer. I will miss him dearly...

[Curgan]

I wholeheartedly agree that saya making is very close to rocket science. I couldn't even imagine the trouble of making one before considering to do so. I imagine that IF I try I will meet even more trouble. Even the Craft of the Japanese Swords covers the subject in about 10 pages with brief texts and dramatically few pictures. the thing gets even harder, if nobody has tried that before.

 

The difficulties mr Paul Martin posted at his post are just the tip of the iceberg. There are just too many points to consider. The 3 more improtant to me (for the point being) are how to mask the blade in order to avoid scratches, the habaki fit and the margin between the blade and saya). When starting the thread I was hoping for such pointers and a more experienced opinion on the risks. Naturally, experiencing on an iaito will be the first thing to do before ruining even the cheapest blade of my (mediocre anyway) collection.

 

I started this thread in order to make sure that it is indeed a good idea to try to do something like this at home, figure out the risks (learning the hard way is not an option with nihonto) and get some basic guidelines in order to understand the difficulties better. For more detailed questions, I think that the Japanese Sword Forum Sayashi subsection would be more appropriate as this is not a how-to forum. I really have learned a lot so far and I am sure I will learn even more until the topic dies and can't hold my self from sending my thanks to all those who shared (and will share hopefully) their mind with posts and messages.

[Jean]

Thank you Paul and Chris for your posts, clearly showing that shira saya making is an Art work. :D

[ROKUJURO]

Gentlemen,

 

while 'rocket science' is based on new technologies and trials, a lot of mathematics and astronomical theory, modern developments and materials, the crafts of the Japanese swords are mainly based on practical experience with a simple technological background and very basic material.

 

We admire a well-made SHIRA SAYA as work of art (which it deserves) because we cannot imagine how it was made so precisely yet gracefully. We are not used to work with carefully chosen wood that had been cared for lovingly for years before it could be turned into something useful. We are not trained in the use of very fine but nevertheless simple tools in a way that you could close your eyes and continue working with the remaining senses. A Japanese SAYASHI can probably 'see' with his fingertips in a way we could only achieve if we devoted our lives to just one small department of woodworking crafts. That is what they can and what they do.

 

The difference between the Eastern way and our Western approach to the crafts is quite a gap as we have problems to limit our attention and concentration to a narrow field. Maybe we need more modesty or even humility (which Japanese people seem to have without even being aware of it) PLUS the skills PLUS the experience to attain the same level of craftsmanship. Understanding the function of an item in all aspects is based on long time learning, and tiny differences may cause big problems. Just think of TACHI no SAYA in comparison to KATANA no SAYA!

 

In the end, intense learning about the arts of the Japanese sword will lead to a respectful admiration of the work of the many specialist craftsmen who had put their respective skills into a sword as a joint venture. This respect may also lead to refrain from any attempt to make a SAYA or related object.

 

On the other hand any craft can be mastered to a certain level by anyone who is devoted and not impaired in one way or another. So some people may feel a certain curiosity or challenge to try their skills on their field of interest. If this is done with a well-based knowledge and responsibility, it not only should not harm but probably lead to a deeper understanding, respect, and admiration.

 

Again, this should not be understood as an encouragement to start a SAYA production!

[Guido]

About 7 years ago I wanted to have Shirasaya made for a Daishô in Koshirae. A few friends tried to discourage me, but I went ahead anyhow, giving the swords to distinguished Shirasaya-shi in Japan. He as well told me that some damage to the polish might occur. Just a careful disclaimer, I thought. He's a real pro, so nothing will happen, right?

 

When the blades came back and had some tiny scratches, the only one to blame was me. There's a reason why Shirasaya are made before the final stages of polishing.

 

I shudder to think what an amateur who thinks he knows it all because he read a book on the subject will do to a blade.

[Adrian]

an amateur who thinks he knows it all because he read a book on the subject

 

Hmm, I wonder how can someone come to this conclusion based on the following message:

 

 

This being said, I'll add that I already read the chapter called "The Scabbard" from "Craft of the Japanese Sword" (offering a general description of the techniques used by Kazuyuki Takayama) and if anyone can and wants to give me a more detailed advice will be most welcomed .

 

As P. G. Wodehouse put it: "I didn't knew I had one of those "magnetic personalities" that drive people nuts at first sight" :lol:

 

 

Anyway, back to Saya making, I'm not delusional about my ability to replicate a technique that takes years (and guidance by an established sayashi) to master. However, since I clearly mentioned that I plan to do this project for a tired blade in old polish that is probably worth some 300$ and which isn't properly stored at the moment, I really don't understand the flames. Would it be better to let it stay in koshirae for the following decades?