Update: Index of Japanese Swordsmiths

[hxv]

I bought the digital version of Markus's book last Christmas, but like Barry, I would prefer to hold a high-quality book in my hands. It seems like we are spinning our wheels at this point. We need more concrete data before moving forward. May I suggest taking a poll of how many people will commit to buy a set at : 1) $200/set, or 2) $100/set? Say set the deadline for the poll to be a 7-day period (or however long is reasonable). At the end of the poll, we can tally up how many copies (and at what price range) are required. Markus will then have to give us input on what percentage in terms of royalties is acceptable to him. The budget for the project is then known, and we can proceed with various options of printing.

 

Regards,

Hoanh

[Brian]

I can do a poll, but first I would like to hear from Markus if he is even interested in pursuing this, any comments from him, and an idea of the markup so we can get an idea of the total cost. The digital version seems hi res, and they do offer a white, matte 80# paper, whatever that is :lol:

There may be other websites with a better service too. Perhaps the Lulu/BOD agreement prevents any of this. So before we do a poll, let's get some clarification?

 

Brian

[Adrian]

Anyone who know the Nihonto market knows that 100 copies is ludicrous. People just don't commit. 25 or so copies is more realistic, maybe even 35. More is just a waste of time unless book sellers are prepared to order a bunch for stock.

 

Brian, there's simply no way to get offset printing at 25-35 copies. Even 100 is really pushing it. As Hoanh said, perhaps(after Markus gives his OK of course) it's time to run a poll (1 month will do) and see how many people would commit for either option.

 

Again, digital print looks nothing like offset print. You can sugar coat it a bit, so to speak, but...

 

 

 

Repeating.....all profits for the author. Nothing else will be entertained here.

Brian

 

I thought it was very obvious that I'm not looking to make any proffit. Of course all expenses will have to be covered, but they will be explained in full with proper documents.

 

On the other hand, I hope you will have nothing against the possibility that some of the book dealers present on this board purchase a number of copies. This can greatly help achieve a higher number of copies.

[Alex A]

Matt 80 sounds like an 80gram matt paper, coated, but not glossy. I would ask to see a printed sample before going ahead, just to make sure the blacks are black. Who knows, if 300 people agreed to pay $30, thats $9000, that would pay for a class job, no need for digital.

 

sorry, geting a bit carried away..................

 

Alex

[Adrian]

$30 won't cut it for such a large book, considering the cost of good quality paper. But as I said yesterday, I'm quite confident that 40euros/copy (not counting the royalties, packing and so on) is possible, even for lower copy count.

[Alex A]

Adrian, i was talking 300 people!!!!...paying $30 = 9k, the more people involved the better, works out cheeper for everyone and theres more money for the guy that wrote it.

 

Hyperthetically!!!!

 

9k is more than enough for 300 printed books, or even 500 books!!!, this job could be printed high quality, for around about $4000 or less.

 

You dont need to argue with everything i say, im trying to help!!!!!!!!!!

 

ps, dont teach me what i already know.

 

Alex

[Jussi Ekholm]

Well I don't know anything about printing but I'm a book nut.

 

I bought the hardcover version of Markus Index from BoD and I am extremely happy with it. I would have gladly even paid double for it, it's just so great. Back as a kid when I bought my Hawley it costed twice as much, and has very little information about the smiths. Markus has made phenomenal job in data gathering and this book is excellent.

 

I'm just old school, turning pages with your own hand beats staring at the screen. I'm not a fan of digital versions and I'll gladly pay for a good book. That being said, I'll sign in for a NMB limited edition of the book if there will be one, and move the current edition I have to my parents house, so I'll have references at hand everywhere I go.

 

I'd rather cast my vote on maybe more expensive option. Smaller high quality bundle, like I said I have no idea when it comes to printing. I'm already more than satisfied with the current hard cover I have, but if you crank that up in quality... It will be phenomenal.

 

Maybe it would be a good idea to explain those of us (like me) who don't know the differences about digital vs. offset print. Somehow digital creates an association to digital (computers, mobile devices) in my mind, while I believe it means higher quality?

[hxv]

Gentlemen,

 

Please, please keep on task! No bicker, please!!!!!! I don't want to have this thread locked.

 

Hoanh

[Markus]

I am concerned about being kind of fair to those who actually ordered a hard-cover set

and want to lay some facts on the table. So far I haven´t sold more than 25 copies of

the German set online and about 20 sets directly to colleagues I know in person at the

sword meetings. The number of sold hard-cover copies in English is far below 25 in total.

 

I did not expect to sell hundreds of them anyway and priced the set accordingly, also bearing

in mind that the outdated Hawley is going over the counter for double the price. This project

was in my mind since I got my first Japanese meikan and thought that these short biographies

of the smiths are a must and much more useful than just a list of names.

 

As mentioned, I have nothing against this project but doubt that we find magically those 100

buyers and I also guess that those already having a copy will not get a second one. That´s what

I meant with "fair", i.e. to see some months later a much better quality set at maybe half of the

original price. I think we should lower the printing costs of course but not the cost of the final set

too much. With the number of sold copies quoted above, you can easily calculate my earnings for

years of work. This is not a complaint and I don´t want to get rich with the index as this project

was anyway something personal to contribute to the Western sword world.

 

So maybe we make a poll of how many are willing to get a set at let´s say at least 180 $?

Than we have a number at least we can work with. If this project is somehow realized, I will make

some donation to the NMB of course. Oh, and last but not least I won´t take the risk. If the project

is realized, I would like to work with payment in advance. Not that I am spending like 4.000$ and

have to sell them all by my own and at my own risk.

[Adrian]

Somehow digital creates an association to digital (computers, mobile devices) in my mind, while I believe it means higher quality?

 

It's the other way around. Offset is still much better then digital. This page explains some of the differences between the two methods http://www.pinscreative.com/articles/di ... offset.htm

 

This being said, the better product can also be much cheaper, if we can pass a certain copy count.

[Adrian]

As mentioned, I have nothing against this project but doubt that we find magically those 100

buyers and I also guess that those already having a copy will not get a second one. That´s what

I meant with "fair", i.e. to see some months later a much better quality set at maybe half of the

original price. I think we should lower the printing costs of course but not the cost of the final set

too much. With the number of sold copies quoted above, you can easily calculate my earnings for

years of work. This is not a complaint and I don´t want to get rich with the index as this project

was anyway something personal to contribute to the Western sword world.

 

So maybe we make a poll of how many are willing to get a set at let´s say at least 180 $?

Than we have a number at least we can work with. If this project is somehow realized, I will make

some donation to the NMB of course. Oh, and last but not least I won´t take the risk. If the project

is realized, I would like to work with payment in advance. Not that I am spending like 4.000$ and

have to sell them all by my own and at my own risk.

 

 

Markus, I totally understand your concern about this being fair to those who already bought your book. However with a price of 180$/set I definitelly agree with you that it would take some kind of magic to find 100 buyers.

 

What I was willing to try was the following:

 

1. To get at least 100 pre-orders from the members, at a low price (under $100/copy).

 

2. To make sure that you got all the money.

 

3. To place the order with a printing company that would have previously agreed to do offset print for such a low copy count.

 

If the price is too high and the pre-order numbers stay low, we cannot get offset printing and we would only have a somehow cheaper version of the bode/lulu versions. Tbh I would only involve myself as a buyer in such project, as it is completelly different from what I suggested initially.

 

But again, as already said, I completelly understand your concern and I respect the fact that you want to be fair to the previous buyers.

[hxv]

I think with Adrian's volunteer of services, Markus can completely remove himself from any financial risk. If Brian agrees to provide escrow services, I think that would complete the last leg of this project. We can proceed with literally no financial risks:

 

1. Take a poll as already suggested.

2. If the number of books to be printed, based on the poll, warrants further effort, we can create an estimated budget and Adrian can shop for the best option for printing, budget & quality wise.

3. When the printing cost & options are known with certainty, people who commit to buy will pay in advance to our escrow officer, aka Brian if he agrees. If the actual order is lower than we expected from the poll, we can still cancel the project at this point and give refund. Otherwise, we go to the printing press and press the "PRINT" button.

4. After all expenses, our escrow officer can turn over the reminder of the budget to Markus, and everyone is happy.

 

Like I said, the budget is built in advance and the money is collected in advance. There is no risk with this approach and Markus will know in advance how much his royalty will be, to within 10% or so due to potentially last-minute unknowns.

 

 

Regards,

Hoanh

[Markus]

What I was willing to try was the following:

 

Thanks Adrian for the update. Personally, I don´t have any problems with a price under 100$ per copy. It should not fail because of

my attempt to be too fair. Any comments of those who already got a copy and who follow this thread?

As far as I am concerned, we can go ahead with a poll to have a certain number we can work with.

[Adrian]

Glad to hear this .

 

At this point, best thing to do would be to have a sticky (maybe visible from all sections) with a very sugestive title (something like "Pre orders for "Index of Japanese Swordsmiths" by Markus Sesko- quality offset print - 900 A4 pages in 2 volumes at 100$")

 

Then, if we have at least 100 members expressing their comitment, we could a) sign an agreement with a printing company and b) start collecting the money (this would definitely be on Brian)

[hxv]

Brian,

 

Markus gave his blessings. Adrian volunteered to do the bulk of the grunt work. Will you volunteer to be the escrow officer? That would make this effort beyond reproach.

 

Adrian - I would collect the money completely prior to signing anything with the printing company to keep us on the safe side, financially.

 

Regards,

Hoanh

[Adrian]

Hoanh, I said an agreement, not a contract (maybe my english fails me a bit here).

 

An agreement would just guarantee the fact that they would print a given number of copies (within the specifications) for a certain price. This will be the base on which to start collecting the money.

Of course we will have to come up with the money within a certain timeframe, otherwise the agreement would be voided.

[Jussi Ekholm]

Well like I said earlier, I bought the original English version, and if there will be one I'll buy a NMB version too. So for me it's not a problem if new set comes out.

 

I'm not sure how many have actually read Markus's Index, but it is fantastic. When you pick it up you can see how much work is involved to this project. If the NMB edition can somehow be printed much cheaper than original version, I would be happy to see Markus earning more profit than from the original.

 

Personally I can't really see for under 100$ / 2book hard cover set happening. Or maybe the printing costs next to nothing? I mean how could that leave any profit to Markus for gathering all this valuable data?

 

As I started collecting at very young age, I've definately realized this ain't a cheap hobby. I think there are just investments you have to make, and I think Markus's Index is one of those investments. When I was young it took me quite a while to save up for the Hawley's, and I've never regretted that buy. But now as of last year when I bought Markus's Index it has pretty much replaced Hawley for me, of course I still sometimes use both of them, but Markus has gathered so much more data in his Index.

 

That being said I'd be happy to get a copy for the 180$/set like Markus said, I'd rather pay more money for better quality. But if same quality can be achieved for 100$/set and Markus is ok with that, then why not.

 

And then the important question, how will this NMB edition differ from the original one? As I already consider the current one being good quality for the price. Will the new one be just the same book offered at cheaper price?

 

Some things I might suggest. If we do a NMB limited run, be it 25,50,100, would it be possible to have them numbered X/25? As a collector this would make it feel even more unique opposed to a regular set. Like has already been suggested high quality gloss paper would be great. I'd prefer high-quality hard covers without dustjackets, but I know some like them. But I'm voting towards the deluxe version, even if it costs more.

 

For the postage cost calculating, the current set weighs about 2850 grams. As I suppose the printing would take place in Eastern Europe the shipping to Europe would be cheap, but international shipping might cost a bit.

[Adrian]

That being said I'd be happy to get a copy for the 180$/set like Markus said, I'd rather pay more money for better quality. But if same quality can be achieved for 100$/set and Markus is ok with that, then why not.

 

And then the important question, how will this NMB edition differ from the original one? As I already consider the current one being good quality for the price. Will the new one be just the same book offered at cheaper price?

 

 

 

Jussi, actually a much better quality can be achieved at 100$, but only if there are at least 100 pre-orders. When purchasing individually from bod/lulu or when printing 25 copies @180$ each, we get digital print = lower quality and higher price/copy. Making a pre-order of 100 copies can get us offset print = much better quality and lower price/copy.

 

Of course, if less then 100 copies can be pre-ordered we only have the digital print option.

[b.hennick]

If this falls short of the 100 copies but is close perhaps some (like me) would buy a second (or more) copies to make this feasable. These will go up in value over time. That would carry the project over the top. Perhaps Markus would want some copies (at cost) for himself.

Another thought is that Markus could offer signed copies at a premium.

[Thierry BERNARD]

with all of Markus's publications (paper and ebook), I wonder if I don't become a book collector rather than nihonto and tsuba collector

[Brian]

I'll run a poll this weekend.

Need to have an estimated price to run with the poll. For offset printing, high quality, 2 volumes and with a decent markup for Markus...you still think you can do it for $100? I doubt it. More like $200....100 copies.

If we don't reach near 100 copies, we will look at the digital print versions in high quality and cloth bound. Looking at some of my digitally printed books, they are really pretty good. Look at any of Markus's current books.

Also remember, these books have to be delivered somewhere, and then packed and shipped all round the world. That is going to take a lot of time and money. You know anyone that wants to pack and ship 100 copies of a book?

Poll to follow.

 

Brian

[Adrian]

Definitely 100$ per set (offset print) including royalties but of course excluding packing, shipping and so on. Consider the fact that 100$x100copies= 10.000$

 

Packing and shipping are an extra regardless of the method chosen for printing the books. There are enough companies that do just that (handling and packing) for reasonable prices, this shouldn't be a problem. And postal charges depend on destination.

 

At this point I would recommend putting up a sticky and definitely a weekend isn't going to cut it (more like a month). It's not like we're in some sort of hurry, better give everyone the chance to order, even those who don't check out the forum every day.

 

I think it would be better not to run it as a poll, because it would confuse those who didn't followed the topic and don't know the differences between offset and digital (digital would sound as the better quality option, particularly given the higher price). Let's just ask about interest in pre-order @100$ plus packing and shipping and if we don't get anywhere near 100 copies we just run another topic for 25 copies @180$. Again, there's no rush, let's try to get it right .

 

If I may sugest the title of the sticky, something like "Pre-orders for "Index of Japanese Swordsmiths" by Markus Sesko- quality offset print - 900 A4 pages in 2 volumes at 100$" should do it .

Also a global sticky would help a lot.

[Dr Fox]

Brian

Can some one explain what is the objective is here. I seem to find books by Marcus available to buy, so they are not an out of print item.

Is it an attempt to provide the same information, under another cover at a cheaper price?

Will there be a reduction in quality build and book size, justified, due to cost cutting?

Marcus comments in this topic the amount of sales he has made, and how low they are! That's not his fault, that's ours! His books are quality products, and demand a price that is probably totally justified.

We recently had a plea from a NMB member waxing lyrical on the support of living authors, and naming Marcus as the example.

Well why isn’t the thrust in that direction, lets support Marcus’s work and look after one of our own. If it's a price issue? Compared to the cost of blades and fittings there is no contest.

Denis

[Adrian]

Tbh at this point I'm about to give up. If the effort I'm about to put (without any personal benefit whatsoever) into this project results in obvious trolling and personal attacks, then perhaps I should use my brains and time for another cause.

[b.hennick]

Translating books has not in the past been much of a money maker for those who do the work. We need them and their efforts to advance our learning.

Here is a tangible way to support Markus and to help those that cannot afford the current offering get a very uabale set. I want to thank ADrian at his efforts on our behalf. As a Director of the JSSUS I see a lot of people who work for the benefit of others without much benefit for themselves. All our executives do their jobs unpaid. Brian certainly is not doing this for the money. He doesn't make any. At ten cents an hours we would owe him a small fortune.

I hope to see this effort come to fruition and want to thank Markus the Author, Adrian the "publisher" and Brian the "escrow agent"...We need buyers not detractors.

[hxv]

Adrian,

 

I, too, think this project is a worthwhile effort, and I applaud you for conceiving it and volunteering for a lot of headaches in the months ahead (for no gain as you already noted). In the end, it will benefit us - NMB members - and Markus. I don't think anyone on the board is attacking or slighting you. Everyone has the right to voice his/her opinions and concerns. After all, we need the buy-in of about 100 members, do we not? We already have Markus's and Brian's blessings. That's the important hurdle that has been cleared. The rest is simply convincing others to pre-order the books. Just because others are asking why doesn't mean they won't support the cause once you explain. You have come quite far. Let's stay on task, shall we?

 

Regards,

Hoanh

[Markus]

I am still into this. Let the poll decide in which direction it develops.

[Adrian]

Thanks a lot guys. Some encouragement is very welcomed

 

TBH I think that everything was explained very clearly trough this topic. At this point it should be easy to understand what is the objective, of course if one bothers to actually read the topic.

 

Of course, if Brian makes a sticky, I will write there a small synopsis, to help those who didn't noticed this thread make an informed decision.

[Frank Reile]

I also appreciate all the effort that you all are doing to try and make this happen. I will purchase a set or two of these books even if the price is somewhat higher than is planned for. I would rather pay a little more for a higher quality product. Thanks again to everyone that is involved, especially Markus for this great piece of work.

 

Frank Reile

[Ed]

I think this is a great idea. My vote for the best quality we can get.

 

It seems to me that the poll time should be at least a couple of weeks. That would give us all time to talk to others about ordering, ie; sword clubs or your local sword study group, collector friends,

 

If there is time, perhaps Barry could get a small ad in the JSS/US Magazine. I would offer to put an ad on my web site and send it to my entire data base of customers. Maybe other dealers here would do the same.