shiiremono

[John A Stuart]

Another thread has brought up a question; what is shiiremono? By definition shiiremono 仕入れ物 means 'stock of goods received'. We have always, as collectors, dismissed items labeled shiiremono as undesirable to collect. Why? Lets go back in time and visit the local shokunin making tosougu. This person/s may be a solitary craftsman, a family endeavour or a teacher with student apprentices. If the artisan has a patron most if not all the work would be for the use of the patron or his clan. The patron would also be in control of what was made to some extent, either by request or supply. These artisans would be the ones of particular note and their work especially coveted (chincyou). Artisans otherwise had to earn a living and as a small concern likely to produce work of their best competence with some pieces by younger members and students being sold sometimes of a lesser immature quality. Also, some artisans just never reached the heights of their contemporaries and their work never matured. It is these lesser pieces following school foundations that form the basis of most shiiremono. They would have been gathered by merchants and sold in common shops. There is precedence for this, in fact one shop was famous for it. I think the use of the word shiiremono for junk fittings improper as indeed much good work could in fact be called such, maybe 画餅 gabei would describe it better. This is my take on it anyway. It is a term that is so ingrained now it won't change. John

[Justin]

When I think of Shiiremono I think of mass produced items that were sold to foreigners during the Meiji period. I have heard they were sold at the ports of Edo and Yokohama.

[Pete Klein]

and ended up in many Museums and collections in the West...

[John A Stuart]

"...sold at the ports of Edo and Yokohama." Hence the origin of Hamamono. What I am positing is that, for instance, kazuuchimono 数打物 could in fact be termed shiiremono relative to swords. Mass produced, but, still of fairly competent make. John

[MauroP]

A very interesting topic here. As a collector I'm more interested in ethnographic rather than artistic value of tōsōgu (could be an excuse, if I should only afford better pieces... ). The tsuba here below is a sanmai gō ( 三枚合) and is undoubtedly a mass production but it looks like to have been mounted on a sword at least once in its life (I suppose so from the scratches on seppa-dai). In other words, here I have a low quality tsuba, but presumably not originally intended to be sold as souvenir to western tourists. Does it fit the definition of shiiremono?

Bye, Mauro

[Soshin]

Hi John S.,

 

Thanks for posting this topic for discussion learning more about the proper use of terms such hamamoto or shirimono is important. I am not sure if the sanmai-go tsuba would be considered shirimono or not. Keep in mind that even during the Edo Period there was a great range of prices and quality of tosogu. But I remember reading that shirimono of higher quality were intented for the domestic Japanese market. I might be misremembering something but I will try to look up a reference tomorrow.

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David Stiles

[george trotter]

An appropriate thread indeed John.

I see you clarified the pronunciation of "shirimono"...I was myself wondering at the use of "shirimono" in the preceding thread. The kanji given read Shi-iri-mono, thus shiirimono is more appropriate spelling...yes it does mean basically "shop stock' and is usually used as a perjorative...but in the previous case, I don't think a belittling motive was present...I think the word was just used because it is the only word we have for discussing whether something is a certain class of item. The discussion was really on whether the tsuba fitted this class...too bad things went awry.

 

On this point of nomenclature versus "worth"...Remember the blazing row we had a year or two back over the use of the dismissive term "hamamono" by a prominent member...in that case he said directly that being "hamamono" made the item of no artistic value and thus not worth discussion (in fact it was a charming pair of tsuba with the dai having a horse running under a tree on the pathway beside the Sumida river, while the sho continues the concept by having just the tree, some fallen leaves and hoofprints)...fabulous IMHO.

Of course , as in nihonto, this gulf in discernment comes down to "orthodoxy" and "dissent".

Some are rigidly trained in orthodoxy and cannot move out of it when assessing nihonto or tosogu, which is strange as they always strenuously claim to be collectors of "art". I suppose (and I'm not being critical), that they are trained to appreciate art in a "quality of workmanship" way... "low" quality workmanship means it is not art to them...whereas many assess "art" as much, or more, on the "conceit" rather than the technicality of the workmanship. I think there is room for assessment on an item's inherent "worth" based on both...but I am an old dissenter. Remember...Were it not for dissenters we would still be living on a flat earth and still be painting handprints in caves.

(Hope I'm not being too naughty),

Regards,

[Guido]

:::Throwing my hands up in the air:::

 

O.k., one last try: 仕入物 = SHI-IRE-MONO - not Shiirimono or Shiriimono or Shirimono.

 

浜物 = HAMA-MONO = things from Yokohama (i.e. for export), "hama" being an abbreviation of Yokohama.

 

If you guys are going to tell the Japanese what their words really mean, it would probably be helpful to at least know how they are written and pronounced.

[george trotter]

Dozo, dozo, go shimpai naku.

 

Shi ire mono is fine with us all...the kanji quoted though read shi iri mono, with the re not written it READS that way, that's all there is to it.

Yes Shiiremono amd hamamono...we get it...please don't chip your geta!

Regards,

[Guido]

the kanji quoted though read shi iri mono, with the re not written it READS that way,

No, it simply does not read that way: http://dic.yahoo.co.jp/dsearch?enc=UTF- ... 8136100000

Please watch your own Geta ...

[kunitaro]

Shiiremono is pointing at cheap mass product (cast) souvenirs, not necessary to be for western tourist, for Japanese market as well.

Hamamono is more High quality hand made Souvenirs for Western Tourist at Bakumatsu to Meiji period. They were very very rich.

 

三枚合　Pronounce "San mai Awase” 三枚合わせ、wase is abbreviation.

The Tsuba is made in Momoyama to early Edo period.

They are kind of mass product, but, they were Hand made mass product...

It doesn't call "Shiiremono". It will get NBTHK Hozon, attributed as ko-kinko or Tachi kanagushi. but Shiiremono will not get Hozon.

[Kevin Adams]

Thanks for the clarification.

 

The term seems very general, though. Can anyone offer any insights as to how and when the term started being used to refer to a certain "quality" of tosogu? It's one thing to understand the meaning of the word, but I think context is critical here too...

[Brian]

So is "ready made" a good translation for shiiremono?

If so..I get it then. Like prefabricated...mass produced and in stock ready for sale. As opposed to stuff that is custom made on order.

This may answer Kevin's question.

 

Brian

[george trotter]

Yes, you are right Piers, I have been naughty because I was too lazy to check my Kenkyusha dictionary first (weighs 10 kg!)...maybe because I can't move because I have been eating lots of chocolate easter eggs (I feel sick). You have now made me check and I see that I can't pronounce i(ru) as in IRIGUCHI when it is in SHIIREMONO...so, you are right, ...gomenkudasai sensei, hazukashii desu....

Regards,

[Brian]

Also guilty of calling Guido Piers.

Hope everyone is having a happy Easter.

 

Brian

[Pete Klein]

Guido -- it's been awhile. Would you please be so kind as to explain how the Japanese collectors would use both terms? I would be most appreciative.

 

Peter

[Guido]

So is "ready made" a good translation for shiiremono?

Yes, but let's call it "prêt-à-porter" - sounds so much nicer ...

[Guido]

Would you please be so kind as to explain how the Japanese collectors would use both terms?

Fujimoto-san as a native speaker is much more qualified to answer this. If he - or Morita-san or Moriyama-san - don't chime in, I'll give it a try.

[george trotter]

Hi Guido, I see I'm still in trouble...sorry for calling you Piers (think how he must feel! haha) and Piers, sorry for thinking you were Guido ...I better stop now before I make another mastike!

regards,

[Soshin]

三枚合　Pronounce "San mai Awase” 三枚合わせ、wase is abbreviation.

The Tsuba is made in Momoyama to early Edo period.

They are kind of mass product, but, they were Hand made mass product...

It doesn't call "Shiiremono". It will get NBTHK Hozon, attributed as ko-kinko or Tachi kanagushi. but Shiiremono will not get Hozon.

 

Hi Kunitaro-san,

 

Being a member of the NBTHK I would like to thank you for the explanation and the NBTHK policy on shiiremono. It is really helpful.

 

---------------------Edit---------------

Here is a literal translation of the Japanese term into English:http://www.eudict.com/?lang=japeng&word=shiiremono.

 

Here is a definition taken from the glossary of Tsuba An Anesthetic Study by Haynes and Torigoye.

SHIIREMONO: "ready-made article." When applied to tsuba this term refers to ready-made or mass production work of the late Edo age, but may also be applied to mass production pieces of earlier ages. Much SHIIREMONO was made to be sold to foreigners.

From this review it fairly clear that shirremono only refers to mass-produced pieces of no antique or artistic value. The case is closed for me. I have learned my lesson now its time and move on.

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David Stiles

[MauroP]

Many thanks, Kunitaro, for the right pronunciation of 三枚合. I'm also glad to be confirmed that my sanmai tsuba are a little more than junk pieces. Thanks to all you Gentlemen for sharing your knowledge in this forum. Mauro