Hagarami question

[jasongarabedian]

Gdaye guys,

 

Just a question about hagarami. Ive read that hagarami are actually kitae-ware that is close to the cutting edge. Is this accurate or is hagarami actually a stress crack like a hagire but on an angle as opposed to being perpendicular to the cutting edge like hagire are? Can anyone show me pictures of hagarami and if all hagarami are fatal?

Thanks,

Jason G

[John A Stuart]

You have it and yes fatal. John

[jasongarabedian]

Hi John,

 

Thanks for the reply. So are they a stress crack normally or hada-ware close to cutting edge? And are they normally seen on both sides of the blade in the same spot?

Thanks,

Jason G

[kunitaro]

刃絡み Hagarami is the Kitae-ware in/on Hamon.

It caused by over polish. showing tiredness as well.

normally one side. It is not same as Hagire.

Kitae-ware on Ji is possible to repair(close the lamination) sometime, but, Kitae-ware in/on Hamon (Ha-garami) is not possible to do repair.

[kunitaro]

This photo of the blade has hagarami, but, still looks fine (ji)

because, with good polish. Ji is carefully polished that doesn't show rough hada.

(if you enlarge photo, maybe you can see lough hada)

but, it is tired blade. it should be retired. not for using. but studying.

[jasongarabedian]

Thanks Kunitaro san. very helpful and informative as usual. So hagarami are seen on tired blades mainly, is that correct? Or can a newly forged blade also have hagarami?

Thanks,

Jason G

[george trotter]

A good question, especially about being on one side only...I have a WWII gendaito blade by Osaka Okishiba Yoshisada...it has a "c" shaped mark running from the ha into the hamon which I always wondered if it was hagarami...it is like the drawing but is on one side only. The sword would only have had one polish so is not tired, but it was used in combat...so maybe a stress ware? The mark is only noticable as oil seems to congregate there, so it could be just a semicircle of minute pits caused by a drop of water...I just can't be sure. As was asked, can these "hagarami" be on one side only?

I can't do a pic sorry...never comes out when I try.

Regards,

[jeremy]

I also have a blade which isnt tired and seems to have this kind of hada-ware near the edge. Been cutting bamboo and wara for years with it and not problem. Like other blades mentioned here, it is only visible on one side of the blade.

 

Kind regards,

 

Jeremy

[kunitaro]

Newly forged blade shouldn't have any kizu especially in/on Hamon.

when smith saw Kizu (opening) in Ha, he will not release the blade.it is fault.

the Kizu would show up after over polish.

 

It is not possible to answer without photo.

however, If the damage is caused by hitting something hard, it is crack,

and if the crack line goes to the edge. then it is Hagire, even if you see only one side, it will goes through other side as well.

 

If you look at kizu with magnifying glass, you will see if it is lamination opening (Hagarami) or crack (Hagire).

[Ken-Hawaii]

I was agreeing with everything on this thread until you brought up lamination, Kunitaro-san. Do you mean that a hagarami would extend completely into the sanmae/kobuse/shihozume interface/lamination?

 

Ken

[cabowen]

Hagarami follows a weld, a hagire is usually across welds. One is a forging flaw, the other a crack caused by externally induced stress.

 

Forging flaws can show up after one polish so I am not so sure a hagarami is only seen in tired blades.

[kunitaro]

I used the words "lamination opening" for Kitae-ware.

(is it making you confuse ?)

 

刃絡み( Ha-garami ) is meaning 刃に絡む鍛え割れ/ Ha ni Karamu Kitae-ware.

絡む・絡まる= entangle/entwine.

 

鍛え割れ/Kitae-ware（lamination opening) entangle/entwine in/on 刃(Ha)= Hamon.

刃(Ha) meaning in Nihonto is Hamon part. against Ji.

for kitchen knife is cutting edge.

 

lamination opening on JI is called Kitae-ware.

lamination opening on Ha(Hamon) is called Ha-garami,

It is different from Ha-gire.

and It is nothing to do with Tsukurikomi (construction).

 

Regarding Tiredness/疲、It doesn't matter how many time polished,

when you start to see flaws by polishing or using, we can say "tired" or "not healthy any more".

If the blade has bend many times without polishing, start to see 撓え(Shinae) that is also tired.

we don't say that "The blade is healthy but tired"...

a little bit tired, or very tired...

(maybe it is just language matter)

 

however, flaws on Ji are possible to repair sometimes, but, flaws in/on Ha(Hamon) is not possible to repair.

[cabowen]

 

Regarding Tiredness/疲、It doesn't matter how many time polished,

when you start to see flaws by polishing or using, we can say "tired" or "not healthy any more".

If the blade has bend many times without polishing, start to see 撓え(Shinae) that is also tired.

we don't say that "The blade is healthy but tired"...

a little bit tired, or very tired...

(maybe it is just language matter)

 

however, flaws on Ji are possible to repair sometimes, but, flaws in/on Ha(Hamon) is not possible to repair.

 

 

That is an interesting usage of "tired"....I have never heard an early Showa or Meiji blade, when polished for the second time and showing a ware, fukure, or the like, referred to as "tired". In my experience, "tired" has usually been used when talking about older blades which have been polished many times and are showing shintetsu or the like, or later blades that were severely rusted and had a lot of steel removed when restored.

 

Thanks for sharing that information.

[Ken-Hawaii]

Thanks for the clarification, Kunitaro-san.

 

Ken

[jasongarabedian]

Thank you for the replies everyone. So is hagarami considered a fatal flaw in an artistic sense or practical sense? Or both? Jeremy, is the blade you use with hagarami a new or old blade? is there any signs of the blade about to break or chip at the flaw point?

Thanks,

Jason G

[runagmc]

I think it would have to be evaluated case by case...

[micha]

double hagarami

[jeremy]

Jason,

 

As adam has said flaws such as hagarami has to be taken on case by case basis. My swords hagarami isnt as bad as the ones depicted in the photos, however it is there and visible and close to the edge. However, the nlade itself has alot of niku surrounding the cutting edge which reinforces it somewhat, making it suitable for cutting. Tired blades shouldnt be used for anything other than collecting, regardless if it has flaws such as hagarami. Hope this helps.

 

Kind regards,

 

Jeremy

[Shogun8]

Hi All,

 

I have acquired my first sword - a koto blade which has ware in the hamon (hagarami). However, even with this flaw, the sword received Hozon papers from the NBTHK. I have verified that the sword was polished before it was submitted, so presumably all of its flaws were visible at time of submission. Reading through this thread, it seems that sometimes (most times?) hagarami is considered fatal, so I'm wondering how it was still able to receive Hozon? Any insight would be greatly appreciated.

 

John

 

[Marius]

What I see in your picture looks like tate ware. Hagarami is a crack similar in nature to hagire, but unlike the latter, it is not perpendicular to the edge.

[Andi B.]

Still confusing:

Do all three images show what is called Ha-garami?

First #4 looks like a crack in the ha while the other two #17 & #19 look like open layers...

[Shogun8]

What I see in your picture looks like tate ware. Hagarami is a crack similar in nature to hagire, but unlike the latter, it is not perpendicular to the edge.

 

Thank you Marius. Is tate ware considered fatal?

 

John

[Marius]

John,

 

No, they are not. That is why your sword has received Hozon

[Shogun8]

John,

 

No, they are not. That is why your sword has received Hozon

Thanks for being patient with a noob, Marius. That's what I thought but just wanted to make sure. This katana has been attributed to the Uda school and I have a converted Uda nagamaki wakizashi (also with Hozon papers) which goes together nicely with the katana as a daisho.

 

Hope to see you on the Nihon-no-Katchu forum, where I'm not quite such a noobie.

 

John