kaigunair Posted March 20, 2013 Report Posted March 20, 2013 ...Or "The case of the confused mounts".... Seems like the forum's been alittle slow, so thought I'd post a pic of this most interesting koshirae. How many atypical positions of mounts can you spot? Quality of the mounts looks good. First time I've seen such creative mounting... Enjoy! Quote
christianmalterre Posted March 20, 2013 Report Posted March 20, 2013 Tosogu here? taste of 21th century collector certainly Quality? Don´t know?(Honestly) If you do expect serious answers-do post serious pictures(on Tosogu)...?!? Christian Quote
Pete Klein Posted March 20, 2013 Report Posted March 20, 2013 This is interesting to me from the standpoint of lack of practicality. First, where does the mekugi exit? Second, the use of kozuka on the tsuka is interesting but they would wear dreadfully if handled regularly. Someone got creative... Quote
Adrian Posted March 20, 2013 Report Posted March 20, 2013 1. 2x Ko-tsuka on the tsuka (as menuki I suppose :lol: ) 2. Kojiri as Kashira (not sure that Kojiri is the right name for this type of mount) I think whoever mounted this used for pommel cap the piece intended to be at the bottom of the saya, not a relatively similar looking kabuto-gane . Quote
kaigunair Posted March 20, 2013 Author Report Posted March 20, 2013 Tosogu here?...If you do expect serious answers-do post serious pictures(on Tosogu)...?!? Christian Ouch! The blade itself was papered, so not complete frivolity? It would have been more interesting if the mounts were... I wish I had better pics of the mounts but not mine. From the larger size pics, they look pretty decent. Will see if I can get better images of the mounts for those who provide serious answers.... :D Quote
christianmalterre Posted March 20, 2013 Report Posted March 20, 2013 last drops of cerosine remaining here?(LOL!) i but definitely have to say-i really wonder this blade here got papers... And how about the rest? (do miss detail pictures) Christian Quote
kaigunair Posted March 20, 2013 Author Report Posted March 20, 2013 Alright Christian, I'm gonna give you a lot of leeway and assume there's much to said about what is lost in translation.... anyhow, didn't want this to turn into a Nihonto thread. would rather focus on tosogu. seems like the papers add some "validity" to the mounts, that they are possibly older, but the blade papers really shouldn't. but here it is for people who are interested in confirming the papers of the blade mounted in this unusual koshirae.... Quote
christianmalterre Posted March 20, 2013 Report Posted March 20, 2013 well aware...i but do have following proposition... Shinsa fees + you did pay so to obtain this ensemble did cover Total... Sorry to say this-maybe i am wrong of course?-i but do not see any significant point here(relating this ensemble) Fukushima certainly did hit!(Japan) Sorrowly! Christian Quote
Gunome Posted March 20, 2013 Report Posted March 20, 2013 How many atypical positions of mounts can you spot? - use of kozuka as Menuki - wook tsuka and lacquer saya - gold dragon in the kojiri but not in kozuka - tsuba not en suite - etc .... Does I read Gassan sadayoshi on the paper ?! Quote
christianmalterre Posted March 20, 2013 Report Posted March 20, 2013 Jean Gassan?-LOL! and to add,no mei no date... ? What did happen? LOL! plus untypic as (at least me here somehow confused-being an boy into Tosogu-please do not forget! )did he "He"add an Hobi??? (of course ) Christian Quote
christianmalterre Posted March 20, 2013 Report Posted March 20, 2013 Ok Jean -he did! Chris LOL! Quote
Lance Posted March 20, 2013 Report Posted March 20, 2013 Even if it might not fit the usual notion of good taste, from the pictures provided all the components look to be of very good quality, and the assembly/lacquer work looks to be well done too. Maybe one of those late Edo-Meiji export pieces, for some of the wealthy Westerners who bought and commisioned work from artists of that time? (I always figured some of these were for the domestic market too though, similar to earlier "merchant class" koshirae) The blade looks like a good copy of a Muromachi period Bizen wakizashi? Regards, Lance Quote
hxv Posted March 20, 2013 Report Posted March 20, 2013 The hamon runs awfully close to the edge at places. Is this a cause for concern? Regards, Hoanh Quote
Jean Posted March 20, 2013 Report Posted March 20, 2013 The blade looks like a good copy of a Muromachi period Bizen wakizashi? Yes Lance, but you can find this suguta also in Shinto times. Generally this kind of hi are finishing rather in kakudome, you find it in different schools Oei Bizen included. The tell tale is the nakago. Quote
christianmalterre Posted March 20, 2013 Report Posted March 20, 2013 certainly not Hoanh!... plus we do have an Bo-Hi "attached" me personally rather would tittulate "it" as an "Hobi"(like we drunken "Tosogu masters" seemingly use to ben seen-???-?-???)(citation;threatcontext...) So whatelse?(we shall esteem here?)-Sorry? The whole ensemble is remarkably "nice" and contemporarily done(in taste of very modern beginner)..however it does lack significant in anyhow knowledge,taste and anyhows historical accurance...never have seen such comic since yet... What more? Such speaking for "us" drunken "Tosogu guys" here... What`s following next???? Batman Koshirae???? Riddick´s Cutter??? (Maybe some disagreement?) Sorry!-This is Kindergarten! feel free... Christian Quote
Jussi Ekholm Posted March 20, 2013 Report Posted March 20, 2013 I must say this is interesting koshirae indeed. Not really my taste, but I like oddities. Could this be called akagi koshirae or ukyo tsuka with handachi koshirae? My sources state that ukyo tsuka came in fashion as a trend in the Kansei era 1789-1801. However I have never seen kozuka mounted on the tsuka like this. I'll eagerly await the answer if this is modern assembly or possibly an old koshirae. Quote
Toryu2020 Posted March 21, 2013 Report Posted March 21, 2013 Junichi - If you know the owner - I think we'd all be interested to see the wood inside the fuchi on the tsuka and of course the koiguchi.I'm inclined to see this as late myself, as han-dachi and "wood" koshirae enjoyed a great deal of popularity at the end of the Edo period. It has a terrific "Low-Rider" appeal that I like very much. -t Quote
Lance Posted March 21, 2013 Report Posted March 21, 2013 This is interesting to me from the standpoint of lack of practicality. First, where does the mekugi exit? Second, the use of kozuka on the tsuka is interesting but they would wear dreadfully if handled regularly. Someone got creative... In the image below I circled what looks to be the exit for the mekugi peeking out. It seems like when this was put together they offset the kozuka slightly on either side of the tsuka treating them as if they were giant menuki? Regards, Lance Quote
kaigunair Posted March 21, 2013 Author Report Posted March 21, 2013 Junichi -If you know the owner - I think we'd all be interested to see the wood inside the fuchi on the tsuka and of course the koiguchi.I'm inclined to see this as late myself, as han-dachi and "wood" koshirae enjoyed a great deal of popularity at the end of the Edo period. It has a terrific "Low-Rider" appeal that I like very much. -t The thread title was mean to be "why tosogus shouldn't drink and mount", in reference to the weird places these particular tosogu have placed themselves. Wasn't making reference to whoever mounted these tosogu, but I can see how that could be taken. My mistake. Maybe should have just gone with: Look, an unusual koshirae... Sorry Tom, was just something I came across online at a website. The site indicated it was already sold So I have no idea who bought it. When I first saw it, I put it in my files as a funny oddity. Thought it might be fun to post it for opinions on the forum since things had been a little slow... I don't think the kozuka's in the handle contain any blades; non-functional IMO....just some kozuka's used as menuki. I thought that perhaps the gold dragons at the kojiri were the round menuki types re-purposed. It was just an odd ball thing...was thinking it had potential for a little neat thread, and alittle chuckle. Christian, I don't know what online translator you are using, but again, I'm trying to give a lot of leeway with your posts. Other than sounding , I'd be very careful using online translation software to try to express anything less than a direct point. sarcasm doesn't appear to translate very well. Most likely to get lost in translation and someone like me might take it the wrong way and get . Quote
Marius Posted March 21, 2013 Report Posted March 21, 2013 I must say this is interesting koshirae indeed. Not really my taste, but I like oddities. . You do? Here is a nice, provincial "Gaudi" Sorry, I couldn't hold myself back... @Christian To the point: 1. The wakizashi got papered because it is deemed genuine. It does not have to have any other merits 2. There is no point in discussing this koshirae, although its components might be OK (hard to say, they look very average at best) Quote
kaigunair Posted March 21, 2013 Author Report Posted March 21, 2013 It has a terrific "Low-Rider" appeal that I like very much.-t Hehe, or perhaps bosozoku? There's an anime called "Sengoku Basara"....check out the Date Masamune character... But back to the item in question, 2. There is no point in discussing this koshirae, although its components might be OK (hard to say, they look very average at best) I'd have to disagree unless this turns out to be a gendai-heisei fake. I think it has merit for being such an oddball. Even if only a meiji export piece, still would be an interesting commentary on what was going on in Japan during that time period. If this is Edo....brings up a lot of interesting questions in my mind as to why? Tom's question was right on: if we only knew who has it, then we could study the piece more thoroughly and possibly settle a few questions, ans possibly bring up a new slew of them. I don't really see why its so easily being written off as being worthless of study, but I'll concede its maybe because I'm a neophyte I don't know any better... Quote
Marius Posted March 21, 2013 Report Posted March 21, 2013 I'd have to disagree unless this turns out to be a gendai-heisei fake. I think it has merit for being such an oddball. (...) if we only knew who has it, then we could study the piece more thoroughly and possibly settle a few questions, ans possibly bring up a new slew of them. I don't really see why its so easily being written off as being worthless of study, but I'll concede its maybe because I'm a neophyte I don't know any better... Junichi, that is the point - it is an oddball made of mediocre (at best) components. What is there to study? Aesthetics? Historical context? Of course you can study everything, but what for, if there are masterworks to be learned from? Resorting to an analogy - in architecture you can study Gaudi's work or this monstrosity of a building (I have posted a picture of it earlier). What will you learn from it? That the architect was a moron? We have enough ugly things around us... Just my two cents... Quote
cabowen Posted March 21, 2013 Report Posted March 21, 2013 I don't think there can be much doubt that this was assembled for export in the later part of the Bakumatsu era. I have seen similar on various occasions. Sometimes the components are indeed of quite decent quality. Quote
Lance Posted March 21, 2013 Report Posted March 21, 2013 The blade looks like a good copy of a Muromachi period Bizen wakizashi? Yes Lance, but you can find this suguta also in Shinto times. Generally this kind of hi are finishing rather in kakudome, you find it in different schools Oei Bizen included. The tell tale is the nakago. Hello Jean, I'm not sure what you mean about the nakago? My suggesting a muromachi period utushi was partly due to the Gassan Sadayoshi attribution which would make it Shin-Shinto; From my (limited) experience if swords from this era were done in a Shinto stlyle they were usually modeled after Sukehiro or Osaka Shinto with yakidashi? The revival pieces were said to be trying to recreate swords making techniques of the koto period, to me the combination of Sugata, Hamon, and nakago looked more like it was intended to copy Koto/Muromachi Bizen. I appreciate the information about bohi ending in kakudome, I've seen these before but never quite put it together as a useful kantei tool. Regards, Lance. Quote
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