Rust on a Black Lacquered Tsuba Plate....

[Soshin]

Hi Everyone,

 

I did some searching on NMB and didn't find any thing helpful so I started a new topic about rust on plate of a black lacquered iron tsuba in my collection. Attached below is a image of the omote side of the tsuba in question. From the photo you can tell there isn't much active red rust but in a few places the rust is apparent. I was wondering if anyone had a suggestions on how to deal with the rust without damaging the nice black lacquer on the plate surface. I am cautious by nature and prefer not to do anything if it will damage the surface, patina, or the black lacquer that is still present. This is a pre Edo Period tsuba of some value and not something I would practice any new/unproven techniques on. Let me know if you have any questions. Thank you for taking the time to reply.

 

P.S. If you are interested in a general discussion of the tsuba here is the link to the topic: http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=15269.

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David Stiles

[Henry Wilson]

You could try rubbing the red spots with bamboo, bone or something like that, wiping the residue with a moist cloth and drying the surface properly. From my experience lacquer is very stubborn and hard to remove so there is little danger of removing it if you go slowly and carefully.

 

By the way is the tsuba boxed as direct exposure to air might be causing the rust.

[nagamaki - Franco]

http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2494&hilit=+paint+brush

[Marius]

David,

 

I don't think there si any way to stop rust that develops under the black lacquer... As you have said yourself - probably better to leave it alone and just keep it in kiri box....

 

Very good find, BTW

[Soshin]

Hi Everyone,

 

Thanks for replies and the information. Franco I didn't see the topic from way back in 2007 so thanks for the link. I am fairly comfortable with dealing with rust but wasn't sure what to do when lacquer is involved. In answer Henry's question I keep the tsuba in a padded kiri wood box for storage. Looking at Richard G., photos of the tsuba it hadn't changed in 5+ years since he photographed it.

 

Hi Mariusz K.,

 

Thanks for the reply. I agree since the rust isn't growing I should just leave it alone and keep it in a dry storage box. Such an old iron tsuba the plate should not look new and over cleaning is a serious problem. Once in while a light rubdown with a plain white cotton rag would be a good idea.

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David Stiles

[nagamaki - Franco]

Sorry, (in a rush) I failed to mention that it might well need professional attention, that is if the cost would be worth it, as usually these things burn up many hours of time. In any case Brian Tschernega's restoration work is first class if you feel inclined to find out.

[Soshin]

Hi Franco,

 

I have heard his work is really nice and that he is a very busy man. I met him at the Tampa show this year. I really like this tsuba and pulling a double digit return on my investment isn't my objective. My objective is to perverse it for me and future generations of collectors to enjoy. Please PM his contact information and I can touch base with him about the tsuba. If he feels it isn't worth this time that is fine by me.

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David Stiles

[sanjuro]

Hi David.

 

I come late to this thread, so I apologise if I'm going over stuff that has already been said or that you already know.

I have a few of these lacquered iron tsuba and have come to the same stage as you have with this one. a couple of mine have the same problem and what I have found may be of some use to you. Obviously anything that is robust enough to clean off rust is also going to remove some of the lacquer. So removal of the rust beyond the normal boning and deer antler is out of the question when trying to retain as much as possible of what is original. The rust on these tsuba does not seem to be ultra active as has been observed, one is therefore obliged to go into 'conservation mode' with any treatment decided upon. This is what has worked for me:

Remove red rust by the usual method of boning and deer antler, then rub off all the red powdered rust with a soft cloth. To stop the rust re activating, a dusting with powdered wax like ibota or equally as good with renaissance wax, is almost a must for sealing the surface. Gently warm the tsuba to get some penetration over the exposed steel surface by the wax (not hot, just warm enough to soften the wax) The lacquer will not suffer from this if you are careful. The heat I use is fairly low, in fact you should be still able to touch the tsuba with your bare hands and feel only a medium warmth. I leave mine outside to warm in the sun, but I live where the sun gets quite hot and it only takes about ten minutes. Allow the tsuba to cool back to room temp and give it a gentle rub with a soft cloth.

My tsuba have had this done only once, without damage to the lacquer that remains, and in ten years the surface has remained untouched by new or reactivated rust. The patina of the exposed steel has not been compromised and the lacquer has a fine low sheen to it. In all the tsuba are in excellent health and still show their age. This is the most gentle way I have found to preserve the tsuba without having them worked on by a professional.

[Mark]

I had a tsuba (for a koshirae ) that needed some care. I had Skip Holbrook restore it. I was very happy with the result. It was an iron tsuba but not as old as yours and did not have lacquer coating but Skip does nice restoration work

[watsonmil]

Dear David,

A VERY excellent and old tsuba, .. congratulations. I mirror Keith's advice, ... and were it mine I would not send it off for your percieved restoration. It is more a case of preservation than restoration. The wax treatment that Keith prescribed is excellent, ... and one which I have used. It is important ( since all metal is porous ) to slightly warm the tsuba so that a little of the wax penetrates the metal. Thank you for sharing.

... Ron Watson

[Soshin]

Hi Keith G. and Mark J.,

 

Thanks for the replies and advice. I know that Skip H. is really skillful at patination and enhancing patina on iron tsuba. Right now I'm am tight with money as I will be going to Japan soon on a much delayed honeymoon with my wife to visiting her family. I will also visit a sword shop, museum or two while in Tokyo as well. :D For now I am going to keep the tsuba clean and dry and in a Kiri wood box.

 

P.S Thanks Ron W. for the reply. The feel of this tsuba reminds me of Zen Buddhist ascetic simplicity during a age of war...

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David Stiles

[ROKUJURO]

.....(....all metal is porous).....

Ron,

 

could you please explain what you mean by 'porous'? If you had raw TAMAHAGANE in mind I would not have asked, but ALL metal?

Do you refer to the surface which could be ground, filed, hammered, or polished and be more or less easily attacked by corrosion?

[watsonmil]

Dear Jean C.,

Although one cannot see the open pores in metal, my experience is that they are there. For instance if one takes for example brass bushings, ... which we have all seen, ... it is now common practice to place the bushing upon being in a finished state in an oil bath under great pressure, ... and although when washed off, ... the bushing will appear to the eye DRY and to the touch DRY and yet if subjected to heat will become first slightly oily, and if enough heat is applied it will actually start to smoke giving off an oily smelling black smoke. This phenomina absolutely astonished me, ... but an old machinist friend assured me that ALL metals share this same capability of absorbing oil . Because the brass bushing needs lubricant without regular hand application of oil, ... it is treated with pressure to force the oil completely through the " in appearance solid metal ". The application of oil by hand even if ONLY rubbing with the hand has shown to give a deep luster over time ( as the natural oil from the palms ) penetrates for example an iron tsuba. This is not a surface luster but a deep luster from the penetration of the oil into the pores of the iron. Strange and hard to believe, ... but true. The slight warming that I mentioned to David is to aid in the opening of the pores in his tsuba for the easier absorption of the oily wax.

... Ron Watson

[sanjuro]

Jean C.

 

I echo what Ron says. For all the solidity of its appearance metal and in this case forged iron, has at the molecular level a grain, and in that grain there are tiny interstial spaces, most particularly on the exposed surface of the worked metal where oxygen and moisture can promote oxidisation. The wax in this case being warmed, coats and fills these tiny surface spaces to exclude oxygen and moisture. In this instance we are using the surface porosity of the metal to provide a 'tooth' for the wax.

[Pete Klein]

David -- the oxidation on this tsuba goes deep into the patina so there is no way to remove the old rust on this piece without also removing the lacquer and patina which would result in having to restore the entire piece which would pretty much make it 'new'. To me pieces such as this are like wonderful aged people -- their wrinkles are part of their beauty (and we all know what eighty year olds with face lifts look like). If you wax the piece that is fine but understand there is no going back as the wax will go under the lacquer and into the oxidized areas also and attempting to remove it could very well damage or remove the lacquer with the wax. Either leave it alone or wax it (especially if you live in a humid enviornment) with Renaissance Wax but I would suggest not to attempt anything else.

 

PS: Skip told me he doesn't do any restoration work any more but you could always ask him yourself of course.

[Curran]

I agree with Peter.

Leave this one alone. Maybe a light horse hair brushing now and then, and some handling. Nothing more.

Its hard to age that gracefully.

 

Curran

[Soshin]

Hi Curran C. and Pete K.,

 

Thanks for the feedback I just going to keep it well stored in a padded Kiri-wood box (purchased from Curran C.) and once in a while do a rubdown with a plain white cotton rag once in a while. For the upcoming NHTK shinsa in San Francisco Japanese sword show I will likely submit this tsuba as I want to have this tsuba as a part of my collection for a long time. I also want to interdependent test my ability to spot and identify pre Edo Period iron tsuba.

Right now it is unclear if I will be attend the San Francisco show but if I don't I will be on the lookout for a broker to handle my tsuba and have it submitted.

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David Stiles

[ROKUJURO]

.....For all the solidity of its appearance metal and in this case forged iron, has at the molecular level a grain, and in that grain there are tiny interstitial spaces, most particularly on the exposed surface of the worked metal where oxygen and moisture can promote oxidation.....

I agree with you as far as the surface is concerned. Indeed, steel can have a grain on the molecular level, but metals do not have pores or interstitial spaces. If it were so, oxygen could penetrate deeply into metals and corrode them internally. But as you know, archeological finds of steel often are heavily corroded superficially (we had some nice examples lately here in the forums), but if cut open, the metal core is completely intact unless there are cavities caused by the working process or accident (cracking). This can happen by repeated folding and incomplete fire welding, but also by insufficiently refined basic steel which may contain remains of slag or scale (seen as FUKURE or WARE in a blade).

 

What we see as HADA are tiny welding seams between layers of the steel, and they indeed represent an increased surface for oxygen attack which is why we regularly inspect and clean the blades. But if the smith made no mistakes, these small surface irregularities (if compared to a glossy polished surface like MIGAKI-JI) do not go deeply into the metal.

[Soshin]

Hi Everyone,

 

Forging faults are common in pre-modern iron tsuba as they are in Nihonto of the same time period. This is why it is desirable to have a tsuba as much as a Nihonto without such faults. Moving the discussion back to the topic at hand the conversation of this Sengoku-jidai tsuba. I have some Renaissance Wax but I feel this tsuba is best left alone for now and just stored correctly in a clean dry environment of a Kiri wood box. Thanks again for all of the replies.

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David Stiles