Bungo swords

[eljockvis]

Hi folks just joined the board :D

 

i just bought a bungo wakizashi from the dealer Aoi art in Japan ,it was in for this months NBTHK shinsa which started 4-6th march i . the fellow at aoi art guarantee it will pass hozon paper but is it possible a Bungo sword could pass tokubetsu hozon paper?

 

i understand that bungo swords are not very popular but the work on this one i purchased looks very good and the makers fujishiro rank is chu jo saku ,it has just had a touch up polish, could any members give there opinion on this sword and give any reasons it should not pass tokubetsu hozon ?

 

 

i would be greatfull for any feedback heres the sword

 

http://www.aoi-art.com/sword/wakizashi/12207.html

[Shugyosha]

Hi Stu,

 

Here's a link to the NBTHK Shinsa standards on the Nihontocraft website:

 

http://www.nihontocraft.com/Nihonto_Shi ... dards.html

 

If it helps, I have an unsigned Bungo wakizashi which has Hozon papers and assuming there is nothing about your sword that falls foul of these criteria then it should be awarded papers.

 

The issue that you have alluded to is that Bungo swords are sometimes thought of as lacking in artistic merit, as they have the reputation of being made with functionality in mind, and this puts off some buyers.

 

Hope that helps and that you enjoy your new sword.

 

Kind regards,

John Johnson

 

P.S. Sorry - misread your question re Tokubetsu Hozon, so much of this is irrelevant.

[John A Stuart]

I had this question before and Bungo swords can get any level of paper depending on their merit. A sword signed Bungo kuni So Teishu for instance has the designation of Juyo Bijutsu. John

[Adrian]

Stu, out of curiosity, when did you purchased it?

[b.hennick]

I have a Bungo sword that received 78 points at a NTHK shinsa. It is indeed a good blade. I do not know why they are not appreciated as much as they should be.

[eljockvis]

Stu, out of curiosity, when did you purchased it?

 

Hi and thanks for the replys folks ,i purchased the sword mid february so thought what the hell and asked the fellow at aoi-art to

submit it for the march nbthk shinsa for me , i put it in for both hozon and tokubetsu hozon papers so i am just waiting to hear the result,i was told it can take 3 months to hear anything!

[cabowen]

Odd that it hadn't been submitted already.

 

There are indeed some very nice Bungo blades. As is always the case, each blade is unique and needs to be judged on its own merits. Many low grade blades were made in Bungo, thus they have a rather poor reputation in general.

[eljockvis]

hi

 

yea when i was thinking of buying the bungo wakizashi i tried to read up on the main reasons for the unpopularity of the bungo sword but couldnt really find a good reason ,from what i did read apparently the samurai of the time did highly regard them but its only the modern day collector market seem to rate them less desirable , i just thought this one had a nice shape and not to many forge flaws so went for it ,if it fails tokubetsu hozon its only a 10k yen fee.

[Alex A]

It does seem unfair that Bungo blades have this reputation, are we talking about blades that where made during the waring period?. Bizen smiths, amongst others also made lower quality blades during this period to supply the lower ranks. I suspect a samurai of that era would be looking for a strong and reliable blade, if artistic value mattered so much on the battlefield then i suspect that a warrior may have taken a paintbrush and pallet instead :D. .

 

Alex.

[paulb]

As with all schools there are some very good (and very bad) examples. this is true of Bizen and Mino of this time as well as Bungo, Mihara Enju and on and on.

Another problem with Bungo is that they tended to copy many different styles. This means it is difficult to pigeon hole them which in a land and system that thrives on order and conformity this creates a problem.

On the other hand the fact the Bungo smiths were able to copy such a varied range of styles suggests at least some of them were very skillful.

The bulk of their work may be seen as workmanlike and lacking artisitc merit but their best is something worth seeing

[eljockvis]

i sold a satsuma wakizashi a while back that was really nice ,not a single forge flaw , it was very beefy indeed with a 3.6mm wide motohaba and 3.0mm wide kissaki, it only had a 14" nagasa though and i wanted something longer so had to sell it.

most of the bungos i seen are pretty beefy swords too and this one has a really deep curve and 21" nagasa so i am happy but just wish it was as wide as the satsuma i sold,seems to be quite rare to find the wider blades..

[cabowen]

Sue-Koto in general gets little respect because of the poor quality, on average, of the bulk of the blades made in a rather mass produced mode to meet the demand at the time. Clearly they weren't all made in a quick and dirty way and there are indeed some jewels to be found. Look at the period as similar to what one sees from the Showa period- lots of mass produced junk but some truly well made blades, few and far between.

[eljockvis]

Sue-Koto in general gets little respect because of the poor quality, on average, of the bulk of the blades made in a rather mass produced mode to meet the demand at the time. Clearly they weren't all made in a quick and dirty way and there are indeed some jewels to be found. Look at the period as similar to what one sees from the Showa period- lots of mass produced junk but some truly well made blades, few and far between.

 

hi

ah ok thanks for the info, what do you think of the sword i bought then,does it look any good ? i know very little about nihonto so i am interested in other peoples opinions , it was quite a cheap sword compared to the others on the aoi-art site but on close inspection i couldnt see any problems with it.

[cabowen]

I think you did very well. It looks like a nicely made blade in good condition.

[Alex A]

I looked at this sword a short while ago, i thought it was good value for a flawless, signed blade in koshirae with a hozen guarentee, i do like the cucumber style tsuba. I hope you get the higher papers but if not then even with the hozen papers then i think you have made a good purchase.

 

Alex.

[eljockvis]

ah great ! thanks for letting me know your opinions,i know the nbthk tokubetsu hozon paper is pretty strict so if it fails its no big deal but if it does pass i hope the aoi-art boss wont be a bit upset that he sold me a tokubetsu hozon sword for this low price!

 

oh! out of interest if someone were to lose the hozon papers for there sword can they purchase new ones from nbthk if you have the ref number?

[cabowen]

oh! out of interest if someone were to lose the hozon papers for there sword can they purchase new ones from nbthk if you have the ref number?

 

No.

[Peter Bleed]

Indeed, this does look like a nice sword and a very fair price. Still, I urge you to come to Chicago or another of the North American sword shows. since you might find lots of interesting deals as well as folks you can have wonderful conversations with. Prices may be leveling around the world. And this forum provides great communications. Still, it is nice to be able to talk with real people while you are looking at specific swords. Hope to meet you some time.

Peter

[eljockvis]

Thank you very much for your invitation Peter,i would love to visit a sword show but i would have to find one over here in England,i hope there is something like that over here so i can look at some of the more valuable nihonto in real life rather than just images on the computer.

 

it would be great to visit the sword museum in Japan some day too, i often go to the singapore f1 so if i ever get time i would like to spend a day or two in Japan.

[Ken-Hawaii]

Stu, do yourself a big favor & do NOT plan to spend only one or two days in Japan! There's no way you can do justice to any decent sword shop, let alone a museum with Nihonto in that short a time.

 

Welcome to the forum.

 

Ken

[Marius]

Stu,

 

I dare say - excellent purchase. Yu have bought a fine wakizashi for a low price just because it is Bungo. If that were your first Japanese sword (although I think it is not) I would have to say that you are a genius :D

 

Well done, sir

[Adrian]

Jeez, I feel flattered since I had a chat with Tsuruta san (at my own initiative ) some 2 days after Stu bought it

 

 

This is why I was asking him when did he bought it .

[eljockvis]

hi

 

mariuszk i have had a hozon papered satsuma shinshinto wakizashi prior to buying this one ,i had to sell it because i wanted a longer blade and the satsuma had only a 14" nagasa , the thing i loved about the satsuma wakizashi was it was so wide 36mm and 30mm at the kissaki .

 

yea i was lucky to get this sword before you adrian ,i was going to buy a more expensive sword at first but decided on this as it was so clean and a good price ,once i read that the samurai of the day liked the bungo swords i thought hey if its good enough for a samurai its good enough for me lol!

[Alex A]

Adrian, isnt this the sword i told you to take a look at when you where on the lookout?

 

Alex

[Marius]

Stu,

 

Was the Satsuma a hira zukuri? If yes, why do you think a shorter blade is somehow worse than a longer one? At least that is what I think has driven your purchase...

 

Why do you think there are so many collectors appreciating tanto, hm?

[Adrian]

Adrian, isnt this the sword i told you to take a look at when you where on the lookout?

 

Alex

 

 

 

True Alex , but if you remember my reply was:

 

Thank you Alex. I was looking at it acouple of days ago, as it's the only one in their inventory that comes close to both my budget and my requirements. In case I don't find anything better I will try to negociate with them, even if the gap isn't that small.

 

 

Actually I was discussing it with one of the old members of this forum a few days before we spoke about it. And it was at my initiative I think he can confirm this if he wants .

 

Anyway, it just felt good when Mariusz said what he said. :D

[Alex A]

Ok, ok Adrian, it was your initiative. . well done

 

Alex

[Adrian]

yea i was lucky to get this sword before you adrian ,i was going to buy a more expensive sword at first but decided on this as it was so clean and a good price ,once i read that the samurai of the day liked the bungo swords i thought hey if its good enough for a samurai its good enough for me lol!

 

 

Actually tbh I think it would have been hard to wrestle down Tsuruta san to my budget . (1500$) But anyway, when I finally mailed him about it I learned that you just spared me the effort :lol: .

 

Out of curiosity, what are the custom taxes you are looking at?

 

well done

 

Well, I lacked the final push - the funds

[eljockvis]

Stu,

 

Was the Satsuma a hira zukuri? If yes, why do you think a shorter blade is somehow worse than a longer one? At least that is what I think has driven your purchase...

 

Why do you think there are so many collectors appreciating tanto, hm?

 

 

it was shinogi zukuri ,i dont have anything against shorter blades but as i was only looking to buy 1 sword my preference was a 18" to 22" nagasa but when i noticed how beefy it was and that it was in very good condition i just went for it, heres a pic ...

 

 

 

[eljockvis]

 

 

Out of curiosity, what are the custom taxes you are looking at?

 

in the uk we have to pay 10% import duty and 20% tax but on antiques there is no charge for vat

the blade was 220.000 yen then i have nbthk hozon fee and tokubetsu hozon fee pass 35.000 fail 10.000 yen so it wont exactly be a cheap

sword but if it gets tokubetsu hozon it will be great because i couldnt really afford to buy a sword with that paper normaly .