Kantei 2

[Guest Nanshoku-Samurai]

Here we got a Naginata Naoshi.

 

Again everybody is more than welcome to throw in his 2 cents.

 

Regards,

 

Max

[Guest Nanshoku-Samurai]

[Jean]

Hi Max,

 

It is a nagamaki naoshi and not a naginata naoshi. You won't get any boshi like that on a reshaped naginata.

 

Blades like this were common in Koto, I would say end of Nambokucho beginning of Muromachi.

 

Suguha, be my guest, Yamato or again Kyushu school...

[Guest Nanshoku-Samurai]

Dear Jean,

 

thanks again for your oppinion. I would also have voted for Yamato school but thought it to be an earlier blade. I would have thought it could be early Kamakura.

 

Regards,

 

Max

[Jean]

Hi Max,

 

The blade, as shown in the pictures, seems incredibly healthy (though needing polish) ===> Nambokucho/Muromachi, An early Kamakura blade with its use should be much more worn out (there are always exceptions - In fact, it is a rule in Nihonto)

[Guest Nanshoku-Samurai]

Salut Jean!

 

Unfortunately the blade is not as healthy as it may appear in the pictures. So besides being ppor in quality the pictures are unfortunately pretty charming. The blade has seen quite a few polishes during its life. It came with a very high quality Habaki and tiger stripes Shirasaya that had still the former owners address. I will probably get polished in the near future and will post an update here.

 

Tres amicalement,

 

Max

[Toryu2020]

Max et al -

With the distinct turnback I am not sure I would call this naoshi, certainly suriage but looks to have been made this way and you may be looking at another late koto piece like the other blade...

-tom

[nagamaki - Franco]

This piece seems deserving of polish and paper from the images. Looking forward to hearing how it turns out?

 

While on the subject, it seems that nagamaki (naoshi), at least in some cases, are being papered by the NBTHK as naginata (naoshi), and not nagamaki. This raises the thought that perhaps the term "nagamaki" refers more to the mounting, and that nagamaki are considered a pole arm in the same manner as a naginata, otherwise.

 

Would anyone care to ask Mr. Tanobe san to get this clarified?

 

The descriptions and swords imaged in the following link seem to add to the notion of "nagamaki = mounting type", as the Masamitsu katana is described as a "nagamaki", despite clearly having a "naginata hi". http://japantrip.tripod.com/Japan/osafune2.html

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

The descriptions and swords imaged in the following link seem to add to the notion of "nagamaki = mounting type", as the Masamitsu katana is described as a "nagamaki", despite clearly having a "naginata hi". http://japantrip.tripod.com/Japan/osafune2.html

 

It has a yokote. IMHO this is the reason because of it's classified as Nagamaki.

[nagamaki - Franco]

 

It has a yokote. IMHO this is the reason because of it's classified as Nagamaki.

 

Again, Kokan Nagayama sensei defines the difference between a nagamaki and a naginata by the presence of a naginata hi, there is no other mention of shape or length as being a factor, which is in itself significant. He does mention the addition of a yokote, which would not be original to a nagamaki nor a naginata, as giving it a katana or wakizashi designation depending upon the length. A yokote does not enter into the equation otherwise.

 

The question being raised by the "description" written in the caption of the Masamitsu http://japantrip.tripod.com/Japan/osafune2.html as a nagamaki, is the fact that it differs from what Kokan Nagayama sensei wrote in his book. That is why I'm asking if perhaps, the only difference between a nagamaki and naginata is the "mounting?

 

 

ty

[Nobody]

Kokan Nagayama sensei defines the difference between a nagamaki and a naginata by the presence of a naginata hi, there is no other mention of shape or length as being a factor, which is in itself significant.

Hi,

 

I think I heard the theory about a naginata-hi somewhere on this board before. But I cannot believe the difinition.

Does anyone know where and what Kokan Nagayama sensei really said about that theory?

[nagamaki - Franco]

Kokan Nagayama sensei defines the difference between a nagamaki and a naginata by the presence of a naginata hi, there is no other mention of shape or length as being a factor, which is in itself significant.

Hi,

 

I think I heard the theory about a naginata-hi somewhere on this board before. But I cannot believe the difinition.

Does anyone know where and what Kokan Nagayama sensei really said about that theory?

 

Hi,

 

What Kokan Nagayama sensei does say (paraphrasing);

speaking of mid-kamakura; nagamaki became enormous in size, fairly wide mihaba in the monouchi area, saki zori not as deep as muromachi naginata, well balanced, not overweight, due to thin kasane. Naginata with long hafts bound spirally with metal or cane are sometimes referred to as nagamaki, now more properly classified on the basis of shape. ..........

 

further,

 

....... . Most naginata have no yokote, and the blades have a distinctive carved groove. Typically, a naginata has a wide blade with a large point, long tang. Today the blade commonly referred to as a naginata is dramatically curved and quite wide toward the tip, while a more standard-shaped blade is called a naginata.

 

now humbly eating crow, as I seem to have my sources confused. While Kokan Nagayama sensei does mention a "distinctive carved groove" in defining a naginata, he does not use it to differentiate between the two, and his diagrams clearly labeled "nagamaki" depict a naginata hi.

[Nobody]

....... . Most naginata have no yokote, and the blades have a distinctive carved groove. Typically, a naginata has a wide blade with a large point, long tang. Today the blade commonly referred to as a naginata is dramatically curved and quite wide toward the tip, while a more standard-shaped blade is called a naginata.

 

now humbly eating crow, as I seem to have my sources confused. While Kokan Nagayama sensei does mention a "distinctive carved groove" in defining a naginata, he does not use it to differentiate between the two, and his diagrams clearly labeled "nagamaki" depict a naginata hi.

Thanks Franco. I knew the quoted writings and also have its original Japanese book. The correct quotations are as follows.

....... . Most naginata have no yokote, and the blades OFTEN have a distinctive carved groove. ......

Kokan Nagayama sensei did not say that naginata-hi always difiines naginata. He only said that it it was a feature often seen on naginata.

So as you already mentioned, I assume that there are some naginata without naginata-hi and there are some nagamaki with naginata-hi.

[Stever]

What confuses me is this statement:

 

Today the blade commonly referred to as a naginata is dramatically curved and quite wide toward the tip, while a more standard-shaped blade is called a naginata.

 

Here he directly compares one to the other and says "this is x and this is not x", but uses 'naginata' in both instances!? Does it also say this in the original copy? Were it me, I'd replace the last 'naginata' with 'nagamaki', and that would fit the definition that I tend to go by.

 

BTW Carlo, all three of those blades on that page have yokote, but only two are referred to as nagamaki. I don't think you can count on that because it could have been added after reshaping, at the polisher's preference.

 

Just my .2

/steve

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

BTW Carlo, all three of those blades on that page have yokote, but only two are referred to as nagamaki. I don't think you can count on that because it could have been added after reshaping, at the polisher's preference.

 

Possibly another inaccuracy in translation.

[nagamaki - Franco]

What confuses me is this statement:

 

Today the blade commonly referred to as a naginata is dramatically curved and quite wide toward the tip, while a more standard-shaped blade is called a naginata.

 

simple 2 AM typo, should and does read; .... a more standard-shaped blade is called a nagamaki.