suriage or not suriage that is the question?

[zatoichi]

Here is a sword that seems to be a conundram. Nakagojiri is kiri. has two mekugi ana. the shinobi ana placement looks like an old tachi but the sword is papered as shinshinto.Sword is not suriage Sorry don't know how to do a link but the sword is at Aio Art.

http://www.aoijapan.com/katana-mumeiuns ... -masakatsu

Justin

[Brian]

That second ana was placed for a second mekugi. Probably for use in iai or just as a backup.

 

Brian

[cabowen]

It may have had the very end of the nakago cut off, it is hard to say without seeing the end of the nakago. It would help in the future to post a link to the sword if it is on a site.

[sanjuro]

To answer the question in the original post, the blade is not suriage so I dont quite understand why this is considered a conundrum. Is it because of the kiri nakago? It is not that rare or remarkable for a shinshinto blade to present this way with a shinobi ana. Many were made as copies of old tachi blades, or at least in the styles of the old Gokaden. Hard to say without at least a sugata pic.

I've looked briefly at Aoi Art but cant locate the sword on the site. A link would be really helpful.

[cabowen]

To answer the question in the original post, the blade is not suriage so I dont quite understand why this is considered a conundrum.

 

Not sure how you can say that with certainty. I have seen long blades with the very end of the nakago removed to fit in a foot locker, or otherwise had the nakago shortened. It can look exactly like this....The only way to know for certain is to examine carefully the end of the nakago....

 

Many later shinshinto swords were made in very long lengths with exaggerated nakago. This appears to be one of them from what is shown here....

[sanjuro]

Chris.

 

Yes, I see what you mean, but would just the tip of the nakago being cut off be suriage or just nakagojiri okuri?????? Just kidding. You are quite right of course, I forgot about those over long tapered nakagojiri that were produced by shinshinto smiths. It makes sense that some were trimmed to look very like this sword.

[zatoichi]

Keith, if it was a copy of old Tachi why shallow sori, o-kissaki doesn't look like ichimonji.

 

Chris, if a little was cut of the nakago ( to fit in foot locker ) why is the shinobi ana so close to the end?

Justin

[cabowen]

The obvious thing to do is to look for a signed work for comparison. Shinshinto Taikan may have an example. I know that the nidai did not finish his nakago jiri in kiri.

[Geraint]

Are we missing something? We know that Shinshinto schools made copies of o suriage Nambokucho swords. Tsuruta san suggests a Yamato school sword from the Nambokucho jidai as a first glance. Where is the problem? If the second mekugi ana was added to enhance the verisimilitude of an o suriage sword or, as Brian suggests for iai reasons we are still looking at a copy of an o suriage sword. I am reminded of some of the shinsakuto we saw in an exhibition in the UK some years ago. |Smiths striving to emulate koto works did so to the inclusion of multiple mekugi ana and o suriage nakago.

[zatoichi]

Geraint,

Thank you I guess that is the answer. I didn't know that shinshinto smiths went so far in there emulation of koto smiths as to make the sword look like a o suriage blade. I was not able to find another examples in Nihon shinto jiten or Nihon to koza.

Justin

[Jean]

I love these discussions on Angels' sex.

 

Justin,

 

It is obvious that without holding the sword nothing can be said. I suggest you take your pen and ask Tsuruta san. BTW as already mentionned, in opposition to what you have said in your post, nowhere in Aoi-Art description it is written that the nakago is ubu (otherwise no need for posting ).

 

Much more interesting is the Juyo Nenki Shigekuni because it is an exception to NBTHK Juyo standards..

[cabowen]

Keith, if it was a copy of old Tachi why shallow sori, o-kissaki doesn't look like ichimonji.

 

Chris, if a little was cut of the nakago ( to fit in foot locker ) why is the shinobi ana so close to the end?

Justin

 

It isn't that close to the end. I have seen some where part of the hole is open at the end of the nakago.

 

This is a classic later Shinshinto shaped blade- long, large kissaki, shallow sori, long nakago. It was in fashion at the time, not so much as a koto copy, but because of swordsmanship styles in vogue. Look for other examples to the works of Sa no Yukihide, Hosokawa Masayoshi, etc.

[Jacques]

HI,

 

Much more interesting is the Juyo Nenki Shigekuni because it is an exception to NBTHK Juyo standards..

 

 

Why ?

[Jean]

For several reasons, concerning the nakago which is not in his prime, the location of the mei, the fact the yasurime are not the same on both sides, that the yasurime have disappeared on the upper part of one side of the nakago and that it is suriage .......

 

Here is an ubu one

 

http://www.samuraisword.com/nihontodisp ... /index.htm

 

Juyo criteria:

 

2) Blades made in Muromachi and Edo periods, as a rule, have to be ubu and zaimei to receive Juyo Token paper.

[Jacques]

Hi,

Jean,

 

You are a little bit too manichean here. There rules are an indication, a generality (they say as a rule)

[Grey Doffin]

In "Token Bijutsu" English edition, volume 32, leaf 3, there is a blade by Nanki Shigekuni that is suriage and Juyo Token. In volume 55, leaf 2, there is another Shigekuni, also suriage, and with Tokubetsu Juyo paper.

The only rule is that there are no rules.

Grey

[paulb]

Below and with thanks to Danny Massey for having these listed on his website is the NBTHK standard regarding Juyo submission

 

Juyo Token

 

1) Blades made in a period from Heian to Edo, having Tokubetsu Kicho, Koshu Tokubetsu Kicho, Hozon or Tokubetsu Hozon papers, of extremely high quality workmanship and state of preservation, and judged as close to Juyo Bijutsuhin, may receive Juyo Token paper.

 

2) Blades that meet the criteria given above and made in or before Nambokucho may receive Juyo Token paper even if they are mumei. Blades made in Muromachi and Edo periods, as a rule, have to be ubu and zaimei to receive Juyo Token paper.

The terminology and using "as a rule" suggests that this is a general requirement but there may be exceptions. With somebody who many regard as one of the greatest Shinto smiths it seems reasonable to make an exception if the shortening still left no doubt as to the maker and did not impact on the quality of the blade.

[Jean]

This blade is an exception, but you don't see these exceptions very often so that I would like to know is: who are the smiths who have been benefiting from that exception?

[cabowen]

This blade is an exception, but you don't see thiese exveptions very often so that I would like to know is: who are the smiths who have been benefiing from that exception?

 

It is not the smiths that have been benefiting....

[paulb]

Hi Jean,

As is often the case in this subject I doubt there are any clearly defined lines and it will depend on a number of factors combining together. At a guess I think these would be:

1. Quality of work

2. Condition. If it has been shortened the mei should still be intact also there should be no doubt as to the authenticity of the mei or the work

3. Rarity

4. Importance of the smith.

 

What might be acceptable in a Shigekuni might not be in a lesser smith.

As an exercise I tried to think of the top smiths I would be happy to see as an exception. I came up with the following:

1. Nanki Shigekuni

2. Inoue Shinkai

3. Shodai Tadayoshi (possibly Sandai as well)

4. Kunihiro

That is my early monring list I am sure as the day progresses I will think of other smiths I ould like to make an exception for.

[Jean]

And Kotetsu, Kiyomaro?????

[paulb]

at the risk of being controversial I think Kotetsu is overated. He is too inconistant. I have seen some really average work by him. I can happily add Kiyomaro

[Jean]

Thanks Paul for the answer. In fact, I had already listed these smiths but I would have liked to have certitudes and a list; Why? because there are some oustanding Muromachi smiths and I was wondering if it applies to them, for example:

 

SUKESADA 1st EI-SHO 1504 BIZEN 331 K 599 SUK 788 SAI-JO/JUYO 1000 YOSAZAEMONJO

 

SUKESADA TEN-MON 1532 BIZEN 332 K 608 SUK 808 SAI-JO/JUYO 1000 JIROKURO

 

Funny that the Oei sanmitsu are only rated jo saku as they should be sai-jo (compared to the smiths of the same period)

 

n Shinto times, several others smiths: Aki Teruhiro...

 

In Shinshinto times? Naotane ...

 

That's why I would have liked to know if these exceptions were listed somewhere and ow many are they.

[cabowen]

There are exceptions made in the past, but maybe you are looking in the wrong direction...try looking through the juyo blades that were in the Hawley sale.

[Jean]

Convenient/special/thanking Juyo, I had forgotten these ones, thanks Chris, for sure Dr Compton was not the only one to have benefit from special thanks ones ......

[cabowen]

Now you are looking in the right direction! That is what I hear as well....